SEN funding isn't a bottomless money pit

[Sogfree]

I'll preface this by saying I really enjoy my job working in a SEN school. I care deeply for the children and families I work with.

I've had 4 different conversations this week with parents where they expect an excessive amount of additional resource to be allocated to their child. They expect this as, in their opinion, it's needed. I disagree with 3 of the 4 parents that this is needed.

All 4 of the parents are going to fight the decisions county have made. Their decision to fight will mean county spend more money arguing the challenge.

Services are already broken with the increase in need. Recruitment fails, as there aren't enough speech therapists/OTs/CAMHS practitioners etc to employ.

One parent demanding extra from one of these services means another child gets less.

One parent demanding a child goes to school X at £100k per year when a place at school Y at £30k is going to meet their needs means the child who needs the place at school X doesn't get it, and extra £70k per year is wasted. And the parent keeps their child out of school for 12-18 months whilst they fight for the place at school X.

That's the reality.

Every parent wants the world for their child. I understand that. But taxpayers can't afford to give every child the world.

AIBU - parents know their child best and we should fund what the parents say the child needs

YANBU - there's only so much money to go around and parents need to accept hard decisions have to be made without challenging them

"If the LAs provided 80% of what they should then fewer people would bother trying for the remaining 20%. But if you have to fight for even 30% you might as well go for the whole 100%."

The LA have provided nothing all year but now that Tribunal is close, it is starting to talk and offer. Having now put all the work in for Tribunal I'm not agreeing to a consent order unless the LA agrees to everything
`

But people aren’t saying that. The issue is how does the money get allocated fairly and effectively. I am old enough to remember the time before children were mainstreamed and the special schools meant that children would be institutionalized for life. They would be classified as educationally subnormal.
There is much greater awareness of special needs provision nowadays.

Parents play but a tiny part in their wider world hence so many ND children fall apart when they move further into it. If you list the human influences on every child the list is massive. When children start school they see parents the least. Teachers, peers and SM have far more interaction. If you are ND you have inbuilt difficulties that can’t be eradicated,yes parents can attempt to help their kids manage to the best of their ability but it isn’t going to remove the far bigger and more difficult
ever increasing wider influences and difficulties.

Because, in part, the entire structure of mainstream schooling has contributed to the mental health difficulties and the answer, uni part, is a different school structure. I have been proactive. DD3 had a NHS ASD assessment, which diagnosed ASD but also recommended ADHD assessment. I sought a private psychiatrist for her OCD because the NHS was taking too long and their protocol is to offer group intervention which they acknowledged was unsuitable for DD3, but their hands were tied. The psychiatrist diagnosed and treated her OCD, but saw the ADHD traits so did an ADHD assessment. She is now treated for ADHD and we pay for the medication while she's being titrated.

However, she needed special educational provision that was beyond that which could be provided by a mainstream school. She's was completely unable to attend for 9 months.

The LA funds her place at an independent specialist school that gives a bespoke education for each pupil, with 1:1 support. That means that they have been able to sit at the bottom of the driveway and wave, then sit half way up the driveway and say hello, then sit at the top of the driveway and chat, then sit outside the front door and play games, then come into the lounge and chat, etc. She is now on the school site each day for around 3 hours.

Academically, it's a far cry from the range of GCSEs she would have achieved at mainstream, but at least she's accessing education now.

Teachers aren’t Doctors or psychologists. Mostly teachers might be aware something is wrong but don’t have the time/ knowledge/ structure to do anything to help.
Many children might have some statement of a need but no money to support it so it falls back to an already overworked classroom teacher to deal with.

I couldn’t agree more - so why do so many of them claim they're experts and tell parents that they’re wrong? They are in no position to do so.

I do agree with some pp that one of the biggestissues is trying to require all DC to pursue a rigorous academic curriculum. We simply cannot expect all DC to target the same level of academic achievement.

For a lot of DC its simply too hard. Its not good for a child to be constantly struggling with work they can't manage, its no wonder anxiety is such an issue. ⁷

The children I know who have horseriding as part of thier ehcp have down syndrome with associated hypermobility or cerebal palsy.

They have group lessons via a charity and it costs about £16 per child.

It covers off physio and pe and some OT.

I'm not wedded to horseriding being essential but I don't think what it achieves for this children ir replicable by a wobble cushion and a TA and I don't think a TA, equipment and a supervising physio and OT would be cheaper. It might be a cheaper model for multiple children with very minor dyspraxia issues (which is obviously what we offer) . But I dont know anyone doing riding in an ehcp for that. I work across 18 schools.

@spicemaidenbecause parents are also often not experts. And not unbiased. Parents cannot objectively see their child’s strengths and weaknesses. It is against biology.
I have a lot of experience of this in my job. Parents saying ‘don’t take your antipsychotic medication’ to their very unwell children, parents who don’t believe in eating disorders, parents who think their autistic child is just autistic when they are clearly depressed/ suicidal, parents who sneak weed into secure units for their children with schizophrenia as iy ‘calms them down’.
Parents are not all perfect. They cannot always see what is really going on for their child. They could be an only child and parent to an only child and no other friends or family have kids, of course they think their child is autistic. Kids are difficult and unpredictable and hyper. We seem to have lost sight of everyone being an individual at times.

my daughter is probably one those “ level 1 “ children in terms of her autism. Academically able, verbal, no behaviour issues has a small group of friends that she likes to socialises with. She also has cerebral palsy and significant health conditions but if you met her - she looks like an “ ordinary “ girl walks, swims, horse rides , and plays netball. She has 1-1 at al times at the moment but that will change and she is going to an independent school in September
there wasn’t a school other than the independent school who would take her
the local authority sent her ehcp to 16 schools and then tried to force one mainstream who said no to take her. The only school to actually say they can meet needs was the independent. I was not putting her in the mainstream that said they couldn’t meet needs. There was not a perfect school for her and it didn’t need to bespoke and perfect for her but it needed to meet some grounds. She is a complex case where if you read her diagnosis you wouldn’t expect to meet the child you do. However that because we have given everything to ensure she has has the right support the thrive.

It’s good that your friends of children with severe disabilities didn’t have a problem getting the help they need. Unfortunately it hasn’t been the case for my child. My child is non-verbal autistic and years behind her peers in every area. The LA refused to even assess for EHCP, saying she wasn’t ’severe enough’. I had to take it to tribunal, and yes, the LA refused to back down and only assessed when the tribunal told them to do so. They wanted to put my child in mainstream. I had to complain and fight for suitable provision. I had to go tribunal for DLA too. Apparently my child was just being naughty.

So I’m not dismissing your or your friends’ experiences at all, but unfortunately it isn’t always straightforward if your child is severely disabled. And from talking to other parents, my story is far from unusual. I’m genuinely glad though that your friends were able to get the support they needed easily.

Well you wouldn't get it if there wasn't an evidenced need for it so I'm not sure what your point is?

No they don't. Ours regularly conceded at the last minute, so late you still end up at a hearing that wastes everyone's time because everything was agreed two days ago. They don't care about the stress on parents, children, their own staff, the waste of everyone's time, particularly the tribunals wasted time!

As a mum who was describing hall marks of dyslexia and autism and being told that they’re not even a description of a disability I disagree. I later learned the school was well known for utterly denying issues and forcing kids out.

so, I’m going to disagree with you.

I also work in mental health.

@spicemaidenjust to play devils advocate, why would a school not want to acknowledge those needs? Surely your child would not achieve as well as they could have done and this will impact their results? I’ve seen schools essentially not provide support for challenging pupils in the hope that they leave, that definitely happens, but I haven’t seen a school deny clear dyslexia as it’s a pretty easily solved problem, and the interventions give almost immediate results.

In DD2's case it was ignorance of the SEN law and a defensiveness about their teaching skills. DD2's SENCO point blank refused to help me apply for an EHC Needs Assessment. She's now in a special school. DD2's English teacher refused to help her and said 'she just needs to do what I've told her to do.' She couldn't. She couldn't understand what she was being asked to do.

what do you think can change in the current system will mean Johnny down the roads gets 'his fair share'? The schools/LAs aren't going to suddenly start providing send support to children they dont bother with now. If they do then they're fully admitting they weren't doing it before due to lack of funding, which certainly from an LA would mean they've been acting unlawfully. But then we all know they do that anyway.

if someone needs an advocate due to their own difficulties they can get one for free. You should know that if you worked in children's services.

parents don't need to complete any forms. They just need to ask for an assessment, if you worked in children's services you should know this. Forms are policy not law and if you refused to assess on the basis a parent hadn't filled a form in you'd be acting unlawfully.

parent don't get to ask for things so 'not knowing what to ask for' is a dud comment. What a child gets is based on professional advice from EPs, salt, ot, doctors, therapists whoever, around needs , provisions and outcomes. You should know this if worked in children's Services so why are you perpetuating the myth parents just get to ask for stuff and it gets handed to them?

also unsure what you're saying re little Johns taxis. If the LA did indeed to decide to find a private school and he needed a taxi they'd be paying for transport. They don't get to turn round and say sorry no funding for your taxi mate, but again, you should know this if you work in that service.

I think your post highlights a lot of issues in these services, mainly that the staff that work in them are often utterly clueless around the law they must follow.

although one thing I think would help would be if schools could appeal ehcna/EHCPs for children whose parents may not be able too, but then that's more pressure on schools who probably won't want it as the LA/gov are hardly going to fund them to fight that are they.

dyslexia is one of the worse supported, they no longer even diagnose really and it’s extremely hard financially to get a diagnosis.
the school my daughter is going to is a MLD independent school specialising in dyslexia/ dyscalcula and dyspraxia and when we viewed it a few times we were amazed but quite sad that so many didn’t have the same experience at school.
my daughter doesn’t have any of the above but they accepted her due to her needed a smaller environment.
my friends daughter is 4 -5 years behind in English and they couldn’t get her accessed at all she recently got a private assessment done and got a diagnosis and now they refuse to accept the private diagnosis yet told her she couldn’t get one any other way.

But do you really think that if the gov strip away send children's rights they'll put any money saved into mainstream? Because you're kidding yourself. They want to save money full stop, they're not looking to redistribute savings elsewhere. This will fuck up schools even more and it's alarming that schools don't recognise this tbh, you'll have a tonne more pressure to meet needs and no extra funding. Good luck with the new oversight of send to make sure your providing all the RAs you'll have no additional funding for.

Because it's affecting her accessing her education and EHCPs are also about health and social care, sounds like you've been mugged off with a shit EHCP tbh. Get some advice from Ipsea or sossen. Your clearly isn't coping at school. If she was those behaviours wouldn't be happening. When my cuodl got a decent EHCP and appropriate placement our home life also improved by 100%!

Yes this. I've never met another profession that veers out their lane so much, we're seeing it in here. School staff who think they know better than professionals that have made recommendations for children about provision (even children they've never even met) and even think they know more than the courts who've ruled a child can have it. Not all teachers are like this but there's quite a few around.

This was a school who didn’t two years denying not only my child’s needs but the bullying they were experiencing too.

The majority of children who went to that school who were later given diagnoses left - because the school didn’t want to know. It was their culture. They have a disproportionately low amount of SEN children attending their facility compared to the national average.

They. Don’t. Care.

but I haven’t seen a school deny clear dyslexia

it isn’t uncommon. Just because you personally haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. It is not always ‘easily solved’ either.

We're going through this at the moment.

My son is in a mainstream primary school in reception and has been suspended 4 times in the last 2 months. Those were for incidents when he had a meltdown and was lashing out violently by hitting and throwing.

As he's otherwise very intelligent, the HT and school took the stance that his behaviour was a "choice" (although he is on the SEN register and gets some support in school)

The HT wasn't nice at all in meetings.

It's only after writing several complaints and consulting a solicitor, that they changed their tune slightly.

We're about to pay 1900 pounds for a private autism assessment and have applied for an EHCA by ourselves (the school never suggested this although the HT called my son the "most extreme child" he had experienced in the last 30 years of his career).

Believe me when I say we would rather spend the thousands of pounds on a nice holiday and that apart from the finances, it's also been emotionally very draining.

parent don't get to ask for things so 'not knowing what to ask for' is a dud comment. What a child gets is based on professional advice from EPs, salt, ot, doctors, therapists whoever, around needs , provisions and outcomes. You should know this if worked in children's Services so why are you perpetuating the myth parents just get to ask for stuff and it gets handed to them?

I think in fairness if you are able to make a good case for an intervention, know your stuff and are able to articulate yourself well you’re much more likely to get what you’ve asked for.

I can think of a few times I’ve argued my DD into a service, because I knew what I was talking about and have a professional background. She definitely wouldn’t have had the same support if I didn’t have the knowledge and ability to argue her case. Not because it wasn’t needed but because it’s much easier to fob someone off if they don’t know what they’re talking about.

The idea that every child gets what they need based on professional assessment is a nonsense, they will give a child the absolute minimum they can get away with.