SEN funding isn't a bottomless money pit

[Sogfree]

I'll preface this by saying I really enjoy my job working in a SEN school. I care deeply for the children and families I work with.

I've had 4 different conversations this week with parents where they expect an excessive amount of additional resource to be allocated to their child. They expect this as, in their opinion, it's needed. I disagree with 3 of the 4 parents that this is needed.

All 4 of the parents are going to fight the decisions county have made. Their decision to fight will mean county spend more money arguing the challenge.

Services are already broken with the increase in need. Recruitment fails, as there aren't enough speech therapists/OTs/CAMHS practitioners etc to employ.

One parent demanding extra from one of these services means another child gets less.

One parent demanding a child goes to school X at £100k per year when a place at school Y at £30k is going to meet their needs means the child who needs the place at school X doesn't get it, and extra £70k per year is wasted. And the parent keeps their child out of school for 12-18 months whilst they fight for the place at school X.

That's the reality.

Every parent wants the world for their child. I understand that. But taxpayers can't afford to give every child the world.

AIBU - parents know their child best and we should fund what the parents say the child needs

YANBU - there's only so much money to go around and parents need to accept hard decisions have to be made without challenging them

So some parents shouldn't argue for their disabled children because other parents might not have the confidence themselves to argue for their disabled child?

That's such a ridiculous argument.

Yep, there needs to be a move away from all therapy needing to be done by a qualified therapist.
In my experience daily short bursts with a child's TA are far more effective than 1 hour once a week with a qualified physio. The TA can fit it in where works best for the child, sometimes including it into their daily routine rather than having to remove them from class and miss out on learning time. They also often know and have a better rapport with the child than someone external.

Unfortunately some (often private) physios convince families it needs to be done by them. It's rare that it actually does.

But some schools are much better set up than others. I have many children on my caseload who are receiving excellent provision from their schools and TA's. And a few where they clearly do not bother, there is high staff turnover and the 'train TA' system doesn't work.

There are lots of nuances though. I used to think down the obvious 'severity' lines too until my own children got a little older. Both clearly very disabled: missed all milestones, completely non-verbal, nappies, both went to special schools straight away. All fairly straightforward.

My youngest continued on that trajectory but my eldest started to develop significantly around age 7, became a bit more verbal, out of nappies etc. He is still not traditionally 'high functioning' (for want of a better word) so still speech delayed, very obviously autistic etc, but on the paperwork miles ahead of my other child. Despite being less 'severe' he is usually my most needy child. Been to several special schools but had to leave due to distress, lots of periods out of school, a package vastly more expensive than my youngest child's special school place etc etc. It's been bloody awful trying to get him a balanced appropriate education and I have campaigned really hard to get him back into a school.

Not always, come on parents don’t always know best. Some do, some don’t. Being able to argue better of course means outcomes are more favourable for the strongest. Authorities want to avoid expensive battles which diverts yet more money from the weakest.

This!!!

My son’s state education was a complete disaster. He wasn’t then offered a state alternative for 3 years. He went to private school during this period at our own cost (I have been flamed on other MN threads for this) with our LA paying for his 1:1 support, the same as they did in state.

After 3 years in private, with that failing too, the LA tried to place him in a 2,000 pupil comprehensive where he’d be expected to arrive at each lesson five minutes late, leave five minutes early and learn through the window. Eventually the LA conceded before tribunal and he spent 8 years in a £30,000-a-year independent special school. His education was not ‘bespoke’ and it cost the LA less than it would have done to put him in the comprehensive, where he wouldn’t have received any education at all.

We’ve never asked for horse riding or sailing or anything else like that, and neither would have have been granted them, because he doesn’t need them. He’s about to start a supported apprenticeship in the hope that he will have some work in the future. He’ll never live independently though. Nobody knows what another child needs. The assumptions on this thread are really unpleasant.

I agree the system needs changing.

A system where 99% of tribunals are won is not a good system.
It is unfair on the children whose parents don't have the skill or energy for the fight.

But don't blame this on the parents who do have the energy and the skills to advocate. Blame it on a system that denies needed assistance unless fought for.

If the LAs provided 80% of what they should then fewer people would bother trying for the remaining 20%. But if you have to fight for even 30% you might as well go for the whole 100%.

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@Fargo79but you’re missing the point that the whole system is classist. The SEN world is massively dominated by very vocal, middle class parents. Many told me that without money to pay for private EP, private OT reports for the EHCP I shouldn’t even bother applying. I used to work in children’s services and many parents did not even know EHCPs existed and there were genuine reasons they would not be able to complete the forms adequately or know what to put to get help; let alone know what they could ask for!
I’m sure there are better ways to spend the money than the current system. Get rid of EHCP’s and share the funding out. Parents might be able to make the case that this exclusive private school is the only one to meet their child’s needs, through expensive solicitors/ time/ tribunals, but that school could be the best fit for little Johnny on the estate too, but Johnny’s mum is illiterate, she doesn’t drive, can’t get him across town with three siblings in tow, there’s no funding for taxis, and the whole family would not go there anyway due to feeling massively out of place and disliked.
I hate the way that SEN/ EHCP’s have become an industry. It’s all private report this/ private diagnosis that/ lawyers and swapping tips on how to send a shitty email to the LA. Whilst Linda working in Aldi doesn’t have time to do any of this so her child gets nothing.
You must see how unfair and biased it is.

So the system needs to change. Every school I have ever worked in and experienced has TAs, SENCOs and SEN equipment.

Funding and support needs to be directed into schools to ensure all can deliver the basics so instead of authorities spending money on individual private horse riding and private sessions it goes into schools with support to set up groups if there really are no facilities in house which can then go on to deliver the same for future kids walking through their doors. It’s nuts just feathering the private nest unnecessarily with state money. Such a waste .

Omg this, I was prepared to drop out of tribunal (and told the LA this) if they offered pretty much ANY school. I would have dropped everything because it was honestly one of the most stressful processes of my life.

I'm not a middle class parent and I still advocated for my child. No private reports for my son because I couldn't afford it.

If some parents can't advocate for their child for whatever reason then we should be supporting them, not telling off other parents who can advocate for their child.

Actually, you know what, I agree with the principle that no child should get a better education just because their parents can pay for it - so all private education should be made illegal. Share all the resources properly.

As it stands, I disagree that all families with children with SEN should have their rights stripped from them so that LAs can unilaterally decide what they think will be in all children’s best interests (as if they won't make biased or unlawful decisions if left to their own devices!)

Absolutely this. And local authorities should provide reports which are detailed enough that private reports become unnecessary. Over the past 10 years, our LA has ignored two of their own EP reports and one each of their SALT and OT reports about my son because they decided that the provision their own experts recommended was too expensive.

@Kirbert2but there are systemic inequalities in the current system, which should be challenged. The current system isn’t working. This needs reviewing. Even on an individual level, my daughter has an EHCP, it suits us but it is very basic. Yet her funding is being split between many kids who don’t have EHCPs due to the waiting times, parents not knowing to apply or how to apply, staff shortages. So her 1:4 ratio is currently a 1:8 and trying to teach 8 SEN mixed age, mixed diagnosis children is a lot!

@HMart1n "Every school I have ever worked in and experienced has TAs, SENCOs and SEN equipment" You must be really lucky then, because that's not my experience working in schools to be honest...

Challenging them and offering support to parents who are struggling is one thing, blaming other parents for advocating for their children is another.

The main issue in a lot of schools is they don't actually have the space for any therapeutic activities, the storage for any wobble balls etc, the people to get the wobble balls out and put them away again (using that as an example obviously) or a senior enough SENCO (needs to be board level at secondary) to argue that the space, the storage and the darn wobble balls are needed in the first place and protect and maintain it.

We do have all that but that is because we're a school that has a good reputation for SEN and we have that because our SLT is humane and our local authority isn't too bad.

As a result we have more kids with EHCP than the national average and loads more than academy sixth forms.

Oh I wondered why I hadn't been working for nearly a decade when DS failed to cope with standard childcare around a school day. Silly me!

I'm lucky. Mainstream schooling is the best setting avaliable for DS. He has high intelligence and generally gets by with a bit of patience and understanding from school and a hell of a lot of quiet down time to recover at home. Standard options of ASC or childminders were more sensory and social input than his brain could deal with, and we weren't the financial league to pay for a nanny. So my job was sacrificed.

I'd call that taking responsibility. 🤷‍♀️
I hardly dumped him in a park while I swanned off to earn £££,£££ over the years.

We're at the SEN-lite end of the scale. But even that is a PITA. Stupid free stuff like letting a child with a co-ordination disorder who will never write neatly to be allowed to use a pen instead of a pencil still turned into a pointless, time-wasting battle.
But even at his level of need, if there isn't accommodations the chances of him reaching shutdown, school refusal and struggling to engage with society are worryingly high.

I'm bloody lucky that he has a school place he can function in (that was luck because it wasn"t down to the EHCP that was refused). Someone I know had no school place in September because the council couldn't/ wouldn't place their child in an appropriate special school to meet his needs after going through the primary years in a small school with 1:1 full time support. Their jobs were on the line.

I'm bloody lucky that I'm not fighting the NHS over constant prescriptions or essentials like sufficient foods for feeding tubes where the NHS thinks one week of feed (the only source of nutrition) will be fine for a month.

All these battles, often unnecessary and fighting ritual "computer says no" attitudes waste money, prevent parents from participating in wider society and prevent children from optimising their potential.

These are the parents putting in maximum effort and responsibility into rsising their children, often far beyond beyond the realms of what is biologically healthy for them to sustain.

These are the parents who really understand the concept of responsibility, and for many there will be no release from it at 18.

So the system needs to change with more funding, support and focus going on MS state schools.

what's wrong with sit ups?

DS1 doesn’t do horse riding, but he does do other activities for exercis, physical activity, etc. He can’t do sit ups, he struggles to sit up normally unaided and uses specialist seating.

what is causing all these mental health problems in kids today?

DS1’s main psychological diagnosis is PTSD. He has others too, but that is the main one. It pre-dates Covid by a number of years. He doesn’t live in a ‘broken home’ or a blended family, we didn’t/don’t smoke weed (or smoke anything at all), he never attended full-time childcare, and he was never plonked in front of a screen. No professional involved thinks it is down to our parenting, that we are over-protective or that he just needs more resilience. His disabilities mean he will never be independent, but independence is worked on in an appropriate way for him.

daily group physio sessions run by a trained TA

A lot of those with horse-riding have EOTAS/EOTIS/C. Therefore, for them, it has been deemed to be inappropriate (in the legal sense) for provision to take place in a school or college. For some of these children and young people, it is inappropriate for provision to take place in a group, even if it wasn’t in a school/college setting. It would be for DS1. A TA, even an experienced trained one, also wouldn’t be able to deliver his provision. A TA isn’t even judged able to support him during any of his package except being the second adult over lunchtime. The second adult the rest of the time is a HLTA, with the first adult being a professional such as a teacher, therapist, etc. Even the NHS and LA recognise a TA can’t deliver DS1’s provision.

Parents have to fight because the current system is appalling. However parents don’t always know what is best for their children or what is effective.

Independent SEN schools can be misleading in what actual provision they give and what the outcomes are for children. Money could be better spent in mainstream with better and neutral oversight.

Too many invested interests in keeping an expensive and ineffective system running.

Academies have made situation worse.

So very true. As well as accessibility for disabled children in general.

My son's wheelchair barely fits into the school lift and he has 1:2 TA's who literally have to squeeze in with him.

They have to squeeze his wheelchair into the 'adapted' bathroom when he needs to be changed which is more times than usual due to medical reasons as well as of course whoever is changing him. He's also 9 so we're not talking about a small reception child.

The equipment he needs is often stuffed into the office closest to his classroom for when he needs them because there's just nowhere else for them to go and they are bulky and huge.

Why can’t parents pay for some of these things from their DLA

For many, DLA/PIP doesn’t never the cost of the disability. Scope’s latest disability price tag research shows disabled households need an additional £1,010 a month to have the same standard of living as non-disabled households. If this was adjusted for inflation, it would be £1,067. These figures account for disability benefits.

For us, we use disability benefit on other things that are also required. It doesn't cover all the costs.

If you have the money and education you can “argue” anything. Children with parents who have no money, confidence or education themselves can’t argue.

You can try to argue whatever you want, but SENDIST is evidence based. You don’t get provision just because you want it or argue for it or just because you have representation - the best barrister can only work with the evidence.

Those who need independent assessments but aren’t eligible for legal aid (actually legal help system for appeals), which can fund independent assessments, should look at charity funding. The main one is Parents in Need, but I have used many other charities to collate evidence for people. All parents should be supported to advocate for their child. Pitting parents against each other doesn’t achieve that.

my daughter has an EHCP, it suits us but it is very basic. Yet her funding is being split between many kids who don’t have EHCPs

If the provision is detailed, specified and quantified, you don’t have to accept that. Have you spoken to the LA? It is the LA who is ultimately responsible for ensuring provision is provided and it can be enforced if necessary. However, enforcement is only possible if it is detailed, specified and quantified. If it is vague and woolly, you should aim to tighten it up via a review (and appeal if necessary).

I think there's been such a huge shift in the last 20 years.

Any sort of difficulty or difference at all is now considered within the scope of "disability". Disability is a protected characteristic in law, which means statutory bodies - schools, councils, hospitals can just be demanded relentlessly to provide a totally tailored experience for anyone under that term.

Added to this is this extreme broadening of the notion of "need", to include anything that makes an individual feel happier, feel more comfortable, attain at a higher level.

All this contributes to a system where a huge volume of parents expect things to be designed totally around their child's preferences.

Its weirdly individualistic and almost the opposite of the basic tenet of society, which requires that we all accept compromise, occasional discomfort, personal sacrifice, for the collective good.

I can't stand it.

I would also much rather have had my life back and been able to work for money on the two days a week for two years approximately that getting an EHCP took me.

All I really wanted was some honest advice about what school locally would suit my high masking, hyper AuDHD child (maybe there isn't one?!) I sent her out of Borough to my own school in the end.

I have not even had ONE conversation with anyone at the LA above admin level (and I quickly stopped bothering with those as I realised everything needed to be email so I had a record). I have never met or spoken to any of our "case officers" including whoever it is "attending" the virtual annual review next week. Obviously none of them has ever met or spoken to DD. I'm not convinced they even read her paperwork based on what SENDIST said.

Only 30% of kids with a PDA presentation of autism are thought to be in school and I know the difficulties autistic girls have with year 6 to 7 transition from my teaching job.

I just wasn't prepared to run the risk especially as EBSA would probably cost me my job too (DH said he'd take early retirement if it came down to it but I don't know how serious he was).

Local authorities have only got themselves to blame. Mine isn't even the worst. At least they grudgingly and very slowly come up with something if you nag and (frankly) threaten them repeatedly.

I'm hardly the only teacher with a SEN child either.