SEN funding isn't a bottomless money pit

[Sogfree]

I'll preface this by saying I really enjoy my job working in a SEN school. I care deeply for the children and families I work with.

I've had 4 different conversations this week with parents where they expect an excessive amount of additional resource to be allocated to their child. They expect this as, in their opinion, it's needed. I disagree with 3 of the 4 parents that this is needed.

All 4 of the parents are going to fight the decisions county have made. Their decision to fight will mean county spend more money arguing the challenge.

Services are already broken with the increase in need. Recruitment fails, as there aren't enough speech therapists/OTs/CAMHS practitioners etc to employ.

One parent demanding extra from one of these services means another child gets less.

One parent demanding a child goes to school X at £100k per year when a place at school Y at £30k is going to meet their needs means the child who needs the place at school X doesn't get it, and extra £70k per year is wasted. And the parent keeps their child out of school for 12-18 months whilst they fight for the place at school X.

That's the reality.

Every parent wants the world for their child. I understand that. But taxpayers can't afford to give every child the world.

AIBU - parents know their child best and we should fund what the parents say the child needs

YANBU - there's only so much money to go around and parents need to accept hard decisions have to be made without challenging them

I think for some kids with more mild sen primary isnt working.
why
Eyfs is being used by some nursery and reception years to just leave kids to play with very minimal supervision.
whilst this may be ok for some kids. For others they are getting frustrated with the behaviour of other kids and there is not staff or teachers nearby. And in reception there are kids verbally bullying and then the asd/adhd kids are reacting and hitting etc. This continued throughout school with almost non existent supervision on playground.But its not just the supervision its the social behaviour some kids need an adult to:
Encourage inclusive behaviour
to be able to engage with other kids
often this becomes harder throughout primary

when dc1 was in reception the main playground had no play equipment obviously no toys etc schools double in size but dont seem to have the supervision needed.

So eventually by y6 there are several parents claiming their dc have various sen
-parents saying its dyslexia yet the kid is getting exceeding the english sats

• its asd despite the child being sociable and popular being able to access all clubs all teams etc.
• Or adhd despite the child only having issues from age 10 or so

And on mumsnet we also have parents complaining the kids have dyslexia oh but we never read to them at home and then dont want to hear they need to hear them read 10-20 every day. It feels like there is no sensible scale for the impact on the child. 25% of kids getting extra time on exams is a huge amount and lots of them werent even using it. and in the background if you havent had the fight with the school you have a kid who actually isn t able to finish the work so losing like 20%+ and yet no extra time

Its a symtom of some parents pushing their kids in front and effectively using up all the senco resource for mild issues. But in the background other kids pushed back and some then ending up completely school refusing or suicidal. When if the senco support which was 100% clearly needed from reception with termly meetings never happened. Often because it seems behavioural rather thwn academic issues.
Ive only seen a senco once in total for my audhd child in now 9 years of school.... There should be a minimum offering with sen. Dc friend is similar even to the extent they were sepearated from every one of their few friends in class changes in one year.

i actually think the class rearrangements can be very detrimental to sen kkds as they dont tend to gain friends only lose them. Even my dc2 who had no social issues has had a much worse year this year after splitting half their friends away. And yes they arent as close. Its great for the popular social kids though they end up friends with all the kids

Exactly @Fearfulsaints

I really think if most posters on this thread or on mn generally were given the files of almost all dc in specialists they would say well of course this dc can’t cope in ms. Tribunals make sensible decisions from what I see.

The politicians of all parties who have failed to provide appropriate state specialist schools while in government have not made good decisions.

Is it? So I must have been imagining the excellent SEN provision in the private school my DC went to and in the one I taught in then?

The difference I imagine was that the parents were the customers and not the LA.

I actually don't think we really know in this country how much SEN there is, as no-one with other options would go anywhere near an LA SEN department.

We had an LA refuse specialist provision. We went to tribunal, unfortunately the school pulled their offer so we had no choice but to accept mainstream (eotas wouldn't have worked for us and there were no other suitable settings). The LA ended up paying out more to fund the mainstream to provide section F than the specialist placement cost.

Clearly not in our area. I fail to see how a child who has received the right treatment and is no longer deemed to be at risk can be refused a MS school place anywhere. Considering the risky behaviours many kids engage in schools would be empty.

Clearly the unspoken message is that some children are disabled in such a way as to make educating them too expensive. And so perhaps that right should be removed until they learn to be cheaper. Education is a privilege for those that can access it. Not a human right for all.

@BertieBotts as you're here I wanted to thank you for that book you recommended the other day. It's really helpful!

And some whose parents say they do don’t.

What if they are still deemed to be at risk and always will be?

Tell me you don't live in an area with certain academy trusts without telling me.

I’d be surprised if any child would be diagnosed and classed as that so early.

WTF??? What on earth makes you imagine such a thing? Have you experienced CAMHS lately?

@HMart1n DC who don’t require independent placements don’t get them regardless of what their parents say.

It might well be the next thing on the chopping block. And already Labour MPs are pushing back on their bosses and whips as they are going door to door and meeting the wrath of public opinion on proposed cuts to disability benefits.

We SEN parents might not be able to wheel our SEN charges into noisy city centres for protests.

But protest we will.

We are taxpayers and voters too.

We will never accept our children’s futures, livelihoods, education and wellbeing being pulverised by this or any government.

It’s not unsustainable; it’s a matter of choice. £36 billion plus uncollected tax pa - for every £1 they spend on HMRC for compliance generates a return of £18! Why are other countries in the EU more effective in collecting VAT?

Labour like the Conservatives before them, go for the scapegoats, knowing that parents of disabled children won’t get much sympathy from the majority of parents of “normal” children; who are lacking in knowledge and empathy; never mind an understanding of the cost benefit analysis of it all.

What is the point of complaining about the cost of children’s special education, without looking at the other side of the coin - a male prisoner in a Young Offenders Institution costs at the cheapest £157,000 pa and the most expensive £222,000 pa. 30% of male prisoners have learning disabilities (IQ below 70), or learning difficulties like dyslexia, ADHD, speech and language disorders, etc. Some have just never been taught how to read! They are being put through a justice system, where they don’t understand the language? Then there’s the mental health problems in the prison population and outside?

It would be more cost effective to fund the SEN system and CAMHS properly, than deal with the resulting problems in adults, which are then handed down through the generations.

We saw this during lockdown when the “rights” of disabled people were suddenly not rights at all. Not real rights. They were privileges which could be stripped at will.

Near to me is a private school which specialises in children and young adults with epilepsy and brain injury. It is NOT a section 41 school so technically not a specialist school, just a private one with a particular interest and reputation. They have young adults there till they are 25 and is partly residential. Some of the pupils there have staff ratios of 2:1 or 3:1 such is their risk to themselves and others. On paper, these are kids with amazing private bespoke educational packages which absolutely include horse riding and drumming. In reality they are severely disabled, may never live independently and this is literally the only provision that would agree to take them.

Some kids, despite any amount of treatment, can’t manage in any mainstream. Nor should they.

I most definitely have and would be very surprised to see CAMHs professionals frequently record - this child will always be a risk, will never respond to treatment and can never access MS school. Most CAMHs professionals battle to get kids into school and increasingly work alongside schools as they know how beneficial it is.

Please see my post above. We are comparing apples and pears.

SEN parents can fight against cuts but we’re talking about changes to provision which does need to happen- and will.

No but it’s not rational, or reasonable, to think that articulating that means you’re supportive of it.

Bullshit. People have to have needs assessments carried out, often at great personal expense to themselves. They have to establish and prove need. After they have documented needs from a range of professional specialists, who are highly trained and belong to professional bodies, then they can apply to tribunals etc. Yes, they need to jump through millions of hoops to even get to the tribunal, the LGO etc.

You are revealing that you are utterly clueless and biased in claiming that this is about sharp elbows. And really you are revealing your seething resentment at disabled people and their families.

I have no resentment for disabled people and their families (and fyi I am disabled myself). I have huge compassion for them, but that goes out to all of them, including those with least resources to shout about their battles.

So I do think the system needs a huge shake up.

And we do have to accept that resources are finite.

It is NOT a section 41 school so technically not a specialist school

Independent special/specialist schools don’t have to be a section 41 school in order to be considered an independent special/specialist school. They can still be classed as ‘Other independent special school’. It is just the rules around when section 41 special schools and wholly independent specialist schools can be named are different.

Although there are some independent schools who are technically registered as independent mainstream schools when they don’t provide a typical mainstream education.

Well that is clearly absolute rubbish. A tin pot statement.

A TA is going to be “just as good” as a highly trained & experienced physiotherapist?

Honestly you are not even capable of a balanced argument, if you believe that.