..to think that having a child who is average is fine. And that having a child who is advanced does not actually reflect upon anyone

[pagwatch]

...I have a staggeringly bright boy. i have another boy who has severe SN. I have a DD who is so far so average.
trhey are nice people. they are well mannered and very kind to each other. Loving, polite and affectionate.
I am not responsible for their IQ's - that is down to god the universe and genes .
The bright boy is not nicer than the boy with SN. My gorgeous average little DD is not of less worth than her more able brother.

Why are we all so obsessed with our kids 'smarts as if that is some holy grail bestowing health wealth and happiness.
And why do some of us seem to want to derive some vicarious kudos from the talents that their kids got from god knows where?

When did that start ?
AIBU that a whole generation of parents are going to be looking at their offspring in 20 years time wondering why they are just as averagly happy as everyone else ?

and at the running story pag, that is fabbo!

LOL MB - my DS has got an absolutely lovely nature. He has always been a very happy little boy.

At every parents evening the teachers always say "Oh [X], he is such a nice little boy". We always assumed it was teacher speak for the unspoken implication "but unfortunately a bit thick". DH actually said at the last one "What exactly do you mean by "nice"? Teacher was surprised and said "well, I just mean that he is nice - he's friendly and popular and happy and polite".

And we were a bit taken aback because we thought it was all supposed to be about "standards" etc (mildly academic private school) and we had gone in thinking we were either going to be told he was a genius or a muppet. But on reflection afterwards we agreed that what she had told us was much more important.

ditto KerryMum!

Being bright does not guarentee sucess. Nor does having learning difficulties guarentee failure. Some children are born with more talents, but is what the child chooses to do with their talents that makes them a sucess or otherwise.

The special school I work for is having a celebration day tomorrow. Each of the year 11 has a board with their work displayed on and its lovely to see.

These are kids who all have major learning difficulties. Most of them start on the p scales at the age of 11 and reach about level 2 or 3 of the national curriculum. Most of them do not do GCSEs and do entry level certificates instead. Even if they do not have GCSEs, many of these children have developed good social skills.

However many of the year 11s have already got themselves jobs or are going to college to do vocational courses next year.

I thnk most of us want our children to be happy and well adjusted and if they also do well at school and have interesting careers which mean they aren't hugely stressed over money that's even better to but you have to accept them as they are rather than make them into mini mes. Women with really interesting careers and lots of things in their lives aside from children are better able to do that. Women who limit themselves to house and home tend to be too child centric to the detriment of the child.

oh xenia, you really know how to make SAHM mum's feel better about themselves don;t you!!!

""Women who limit themselves to house and home tend to be too child centric to the detriment of the child.""

Oh I am so overjoyed to be so child centred that I am detrimental to my children!!!

and some women xenia don't know what they want to do at 16 and decide (and have more of a drive) to do it later in life. it's never too late.

why do you assume that interesting careers are only the ones that are well paid

Xenia - i'm sorry but you cannot jump on every fecking thread and turn it into your anti SAHM campaign horse - I think this is a really interesting thread so PLEASE don't spoilt it!!!

Thankyou for starting this thread pagwatch (I'm not stalking, honest ). I think it makes soooo much sense.

DD1 is extremely bright and a lazy arse who dropped out of school. I can trace why she did this to a day when she was about 9. It was parents day at her school and her bitch of a teacher stood there for half an hour ripping into her for being lazy, not concentrating and generally being crap. Instead of sticking up for my DD, i bollocked her the whole way home because i was mortified that she wasn;t the perfect pupil. I spent the rest of the time pushing and fighting with her, i remember standing over her doing her homework shouting at her for only having done xy and z. I dont have an excuse for this and i am deeply ashamed of it. BUT my reasons were that i felt i needed to prove myeslf through my daughter, i needed to prove that she was a bright kid despite having a single parent teenage mum. (and no Xenia in case you are interested, i didnt need to get a life myself - i was busy doing degree, working and getting a PhD - so not a boring SAHM!!) Do you know, i wish i just said to her "don't want to do your homework?? " "ok, lets go to the park instead1" instead of constant fights and tears. She has now left home and i think that is a big part of it

So, now i have DD2, im older (don't i know it!) and ive learnt from my parenting mistakes, and im a more confident and settled person. Happy with DP etc. I am a SAHM [poking tongue out at xenia emoticon] and DD and i are extremely close. When she was about 18m-2, she had a severe speech delay and today she has just been assessed (she is 2.9) and i have been told she has come on in leaps and bounds but lacks concentration. I looked at my daughter and i could have cried, not because i thought, oh dear not again, but it was like looking at her sister all over again, staring around the room, fidgeting in her seat etc etc. I just thought, fuck, what if DD1 had a problem and i missed it, spent the whole of her school life telling her she was lazy. This is very hard for me to type this. I am determined not to repeat history here. I am not going to push DD2, i will however push to make sure she gets any help she may or may not need.

This sounds awful but DP and his family are not academically bright. HE is however a very talented joiner and can make anything out of a piece of wood while i just look on open mouthed. I have a list of qualifications as long as your arm, which i get long after leaving school, but i have no common sense and no confidence. Its not all about "birghtness". I do suspect that DD takes after her dad - that is SOOOO a good thing, he is a happy, loving, caring person who couldnt give a stuff what anyone else thinks. I dont want her to be like me, worrying what other people think of me all the time.

You know what, my DD1, she left school, left home, doesn't have a job - will NOT be pushed into doing ANYTHING she doesnt want to do and i am SO FUCKING PROUD OF HER!!!

I posted much earlier on this thread and revisited to find certain people seem to be driving toward an argument.

Reading Martianbishops post about 'nice' children stopped me avoiding this thread entirely...it actually brought tears to my eyes (yes, i am over-emotional, i think it's that time of the month). There's a whole lot of hope for my kids yet then, as every teacher of theirs agrees, they are most definately 'nice'

MB, that is such an interesting point about nice chidlren, and so true.

Having a disabled child can happen to anyone. Even if your child is gifted and talented, everything can change overnight.

I know a lovely little boy who was doing well at his primary school. He caught mengenitis and lost most his speech and short term memory. He now has severe SEN and will need looking after for the rest of his life.

Its easy to think that good luck is good parenting.

Its funny, i do take DD to ballet, she is only 2.9, but she LOVES IT, i have done the whole baby music thing too - but the competitiveness of the mothers is rife there. I mean FFS, my DDs ballet school is having a "show", a show???they are 2-3 years old FFS, so there is an extra lesson each week, has to be paid for, £30 on costumes and £5 per ticket to see your child do ballet - parents discouraged from watching as it puts them off, but they have taped up the window as the show wont be a "surprise" Needless to say, my DD will NOT be doing the show - she goes because she loves music and loves to dance an i love to see the big smile on her face as she jumps around totally out of time with everyone else, staring at the ceiling and clapping when she shouldnt (i watch through a crack in the curtains). Oh and then there is french from 6m WTF????? We are certainly not going down that road. AND the minute my DD doesnt want to go to ballet anymore, or just doesnt want to do it one week, she wont be doing it. You would be amazed at the whole "you must go to ballet darling" psychology that goes on.......they are barely out of nappies, um, mine isn't actually, i can't be arsed with keep having to wash the carpet . rant over

DD is in class this year with a boy who comes from a family of 5 children. I don't know much about their family circumstances other than the fact that the Mum is a single Mum and a doctor. I think I am the only parent in the class to have met the Mum, other than the teacher - and it was a completely random moment.

This little boy has not been to one birthday party this year. As far as I know, he has not had a single playdate. His Mum has never been to a single school event - play, sports event, class party etc. As a full time working parent and single head of a large family , I imagine she's simply not got the time to get involved in anything but the absolute necessities.

My point? This boy is an absolutely astounding artist. He also is independent, thoughtful, diligent and resourceful. His mother has not had the time (and perhaps not the inclination) to nuture his talents. His ability is just there. The Mum takes no credit for his creativity and skill - in fact, it surprised her when she was told by the teacher that he was drawing freehand, and not tracing.

He appears to be a little boy with a real gift, and his Mum has, whether through design or circumstance, allowed it to flourish through benign neglect.

I think that parents give themselves far too much credit for the achievements of their children.
I thought that yours was a very valid point Earlybird, if there is talent it will show through anyway. I was a single parent and one thing that I felt really guilty about was not playing football with my DS, I just found it boring and forced myself, conscious that I was always saying 'just 5 more minutes'. However he was keen and joined an under 7 side and played for a league for 10 years and was in the school team.
I didn't reply to Xenia because I didn't want to get into the usual SAHM debate but I have never heard such rubbish! It depends on the DC, some might be inspired by a working Mum, some might not be.
If a DC is doing ballet it is much healthier to have Lucyellensmum's approach. If they like ballet they will do well, they do not need a pushy Mum wanting them to excel.
A sad thing that I witnessed, and it has stayed with me for years,was a four year old who did not pass his swimming badge. His mother went on and on about how disappointed his father would be and what a whimp he was.Little boy was crying by whis time and she had him lying on his back in the water while she supported his head-she suddenly let go! She stalked off to get changed while he followed crying.I kept quiet but he was 4 years old-it didn't matter in the least that he didn't get the badge!
Each child is an individual, we should rejoice in what we have -not mould into what we think we want.

Just skimmed so apologies if already said - I agree that being bright/clever/G+T (hate that term) doesn't mean better ...BUT why are we so ashamed of achievement, why do we aspire to and praise mediocrity, why do we slag off anyone who comes her to brag about their bright/achieving kids (in whatever field) - that is not negating kids who are average/SN/not achievers...BUT IMO I will continue to praise (and yes push) my children to be the very BEST that THEY can be and there is no shame in that, I want them to be good at what they and if it is OK for everyone to be the same then what do kids have to drive them..
I AM NOT ashamed to say I was/am considered bright - I was proud of it..I worked my socks off to make the most of what I was given and have a bloody good job and life as a result (and I still work hard)...it allowed me to get away from a shitty upbringing and life, to not be like my mum and be dependant on an abusive/cheating H, it allows me to live my own life and give my DD's the best I can - do I want that for them of course I do, will I push them to achiev yes, will I teach them good manners to be kind and loving and caring of course one does not mean you cannot have the other...and am I proud of their acievements YES I am !

I agree with MB's 'nice kids do fine' statement. I do wonder though if 'niceness' is actually as much a part of your genetic makeup as intelligence. Sure you can practise and encourage your children to be nice, but, just as with academic work, some will do better at it than others and a few really introverted ones will really struggle to get it at all.

Is it right to attach any more importance to being nice than to being bright? Gut feeling says yes (as 'niceness' is, well nicer!), but if a child is naturally nice but has had to work hard to do well academically, shouldn't you rate more highly what has taken more effort?

Xenia on Thu 22-May-08 21:53:11
"I thnk most of us want our children to be happy and well adjusted and if they also do well at school and have interesting careers which mean they aren't hugely stressed over money that's even better to but you have to accept them as they are rather than make them into mini mes. Women with really interesting careers and lots of things in their lives aside from children are better able to do that. Women who limit themselves to house and home tend to be too child centric to the detriment of the child. "

Funny, Xenia, my experience is that it's the working Mums who often the keenest to mould their children, because success in exactly their way becomes so important to them. SAHMs in my experience have had to make do with less open success,less money etc so they're often more open to all possibilities, more prepared to let their dc's take chances; they know the world won't collapse around you if you're slightly less successful than you originally thought.

Anyway, Florence makes a useful point about the limits of moulding your child's behaviour. Works the other way too. I know a family who are incredibly PFB. Their son has been a genius at everything since birth. He is now at junior school and is still a genius in every conceivable area (which is defined as the things he is interested in- the rest just don't count). So you would think that he would be the most conceited, least socially adept and totally impossible youngster imaginable. Instead he is a perfectly pleasant, reasonable, down -to-earth young man. We can only do so much for our children

That's not my experience. But certainly we can agree that some parents,working or not working, because they failed in life want to make their child do the things they always wished they wanted to do and that is very sad and unfair on the child.

But that has to be distinguished from helping your child to fulfil it's potential and certainly we aimed to give the children lots of opportunities but then if they choose to withdraw to an ashram or monastery to meditate for 5 years or go and work at a beach bar in Bali or pursue a career in the city that was then up to them but we would be content with the fact we had given them a lot of opportunities as well as a good self of self and values.

No one is average evryone is unique and special Just because you are not gifted according to a set of govt/education criteria does not mean you are not amazing in other ways.All this measuring and comparing our kids and each other is b*cks

Wow Xenia you really have an axe to grind with SAHM. What on earth had that comment got to do with this topic? What makes you think that interesting jobs are always well paid? I hope my children are not only motivated by money.

I don't think that anyone has said that we should be ashamed of achievement macdoodle, but it is different things to different people.
I was very proud that my DS1 got an A in English for GCSE,I was just as proud that DS2 got a C because he worked really hard to get it and realistically, with dyslexia,he couldn't have got any higher.
Success is also different things to different people. DS1 with his university degree probably won't earn as much as DS2 who left school at 16 because DS2 is very practical and learning to do a well paid job. DS2 is motivated by money. DS1 and DS3 are not motivated by money.
We should encourage our DCs to work to the best of their abilities because it gives more opportunities in life. I feel sorry for the DCs who get 99% in a test and the parents want to know why they lost marks-or the DC who comes 2nd in a race and the parent thinks they didn't do their best and should be first.
I am pleased with my DCs because, all through school, teachers have said that they are nice boys, they are caring, polite, friendly and popular with their peers. I think that is the most important thing to me.
Whether you work ot stay at home is irrelevant-it is not a contest.