to accept a job thats morally questionable?

[jobdrama101]

A brief bit of background. Im a qualified nurse, i work in a very high pressure physical role, for 12 hours shifts. I LOVE my job, i love the pressure and the pace. However, i have some health issues, im off sick at the minute. Im awaiting some result and some further referrals. The health issue mainly affects mobility, otherwise physically i am fine, but the most likely result is going to be a condition that will affect my ability to do the job i love. Having discussed it with my manager, they have heavily implied returning if i get the diagnosis is going to be difficult, and i am in full agreement, as upsetting as this is. This job was my goal from childhood, im now mid 40's but only qualified 4 years ago, it took me a long time to achieve my dream.

Less physical nursing jobs do exist, however, the job market for nursing is, well, basically none existent. The best, most suitable for my health needs, earning enough money to support myself and my children, is a pip assessor role. But, everyone has read the negatives attached to this position.

I need a job though, not working is not an option. This is a hybrid role, that involves mostly work from home, around 5 days per month in a centre doing face to face assessments, which is more than manageable as even in person, there isnt a lot of walking around.

My thinking at the moment is its temporary, or could be, there are clinic based jobs, practice nursing, maybe even research, there are other positions, but there are none available for me to even apply for. I feel it is most sensible to just accept i cannot go back to the job i love, and rather than remain off sick indefinitely, do this job whilst looking for a suitable role.

Ive asked friends and family, and im getting mixed views. Some saying its a solid plan, others saying morally, they would never ever do this job.

Op is your current job in NHS? If so try the ill health retirement route and consult your trade union.

Agree with above! Ride the sickness policy out, if in the end it is decided that you are not fit for your role, and no other suitable role either, and they finish your contract you have the right to be put forward to claim your nhs pension early.
This can provide you with a tax free lump sum and a monthly pension.

You sound like exactly the kind of caring and compassionate person that would in an ideal world be suited to that role. Think of it as a role where you’re trying to treat people fairly and get them the help that they need. Go for it!

Go for it - we had a lovely, compassionate assessor for my daughter. We need more people from nursing backgrounds with life experience and empathy doing the role.

I find it quite interesting that people seem to see this job as morally questionable only to the extent that you have to reject people - a hypothetical PIP assessor job where you could approve everyone "compassionately" would presumably be fine?

I'm disabled, have had PIP assessments, some good, some bad.
One lady was absolutely lovely, and it really made me changey viewpoint of people who accept the job. Others have lied at times.

So what I want to say is you can make a difference to people's lives. Go for it!

Do the job, and do it fairly
If people with moral qualms about it never took the job, that only leaves uncaring assessors
The fact that you care about the moral side implies very strongly that you will be a fair, caring, assessor, which is very much needed for people seeking PIP

Odd post. It’s not morally questionable at all.

It might be emotionally difficult/draining (a bit like social work I guess) but that’s different.

Assume those thinking the PIP process is a fair one have never experienced it. The PIP assessors my friend had were pleasant enough but they do ask the questions in a way that doesn't lead to getting the answers they'd need to make an informed decision and relies on the claimant being able to answer yes, but and explain why they can do the activity sometimes but can't do it reliably I.e safely, normal timeframe, to an acceptable standard or repeatably like the average person would.

When it comes to the reports they send DWP ( you have to ring DWP to request a copy) each time it included things my friend never said with assumptions about what they were able to do with no basis and changes to the days stated so would fail the majority of days >50% rule in order to justify why they didn't meet the various activities criteria and if look on any disability forum you'll see it's a common experience. I suspect this is the part of the job that's difficult morally as I read an article by a whistleblower assessor who claimed that even if they believed the claimant met the criteria their superiors would alter their reports so it doesn't sound like you get away with being compassionate & factual.

DWP's decision maker uses this report to justify not awarding points and doesn't appear to pay much attention to the rest of the evidence on file. I assume that's why they use a 3rd party company rather than do it in-house as they can be blamed for any quality issues. DWP seem to work on the basis of deny people knowing most will give up & go away. My friend took their first claim to a tribunal panel ( judge, doctor & care professional) and felt it was a fairer experience, as 70% are awarded in claimant's favour it just shows how poor the assesment process is.

I don't think it is a morally questionable job as this is currently how our Pip system works and you are not the one making the decision, you are just assessing and writing the report. However I think what you might find hard is it is not a 'caring' role, you are not able to give help or advice and have to have difficult conversations with vulnerable people. I know a couple of people who have done it and hated it, mostly because of the difficult conversations/some abuse, it's VERY target driven and you are constantly monitored and audited so it can feel very stressful. However if it suits your health issues it could be the ideal job for you.

Total sympathy for you, it's a dog eat dog world, as your manager is demonstrating by encouraging you to give up your rights to protection as a nurse who may be about to be less immediate front line use to her, so she's encouraging you out, rather than seeking redeployment.

Disregarding ins and outs of working for companies whose aims often have little to do with morality, why on earth are you considering giving up the rights so many fought hard for you to have?
Is it to do with saving your pin so you remain a registered nurse?

If so are you aware of all the roles for qualified nurses with companies delivering 'hospital at home' to patients?

I've 'met' three registered nurses through mine. One is WFH who phone assesses equipment and medication needs and the refrigeration journey of medication. One (has mobility issues) teaches new patients/carers how to self inject, covers doing it for them while they learn if having issues, and ensure an understanding of what and when to report. One is involved in indwelling catheter use, but only rarely goes out to see patients. Most of her work is phone assessing and ensuring continuous care from others.
Another interesting place is in medical trials where tbh they mainly just take blood pressures, ask questions and complete forms. Participants present to them daily. I've met one with significant disability and mobility issues.

PIP assessor jobs are continuously available because decent people rarely last long in them because of preset targets their reports have to meet.

The reason it is considered morally questionable by many professionals is because unfortunately no matter how nicely you do it or wrap it up, it is lending your qualifications, professionalism and pin, as cover to a system that has preset targets regardless of the levels of disability an assessor is seeing.
It isn't using medical knowledge to decision make.

There is an argument that if it is a superior that adds untrue things to your reports, or changes them to ensure a disabled person won't receive the help they need, that's not on you.
But it's being done under your name, and using your qualification to hide it behind, and you're complicity is it's what your really paid for.

I think with what the government are trying to do at the moment this will become one of the worst things you could possibly do with your skills and time. If there's any way to avoid it I would absolutely avoid it. I think it's much worse than working for a tobacco company although not at the level of an arms dealer, to use the points of comparison given by someone seemingly quite naive upthread.

Debbie Abrahams MP, chair of the Work and Pensions Committee has spoken out recently to say that disabled people are now dying not just through suicide and despair but from starvation such is the degree to which we're depriving them of the funds they need to live and that's before this next round of cuts have even been made. This next round of cuts will cause many deaths and destroy countless more lives. I wouldn't be part of implementing that for all the tea in China if there was a way I could avoid it.

The UN and Amnesty International have both highlighted "grave and systematic violations of human rights" with how the UK welfare system treats the disabled, and again, that is the situation now, before the massive cuts that they want to make. No other developed country that I know of, except possibly the US where things are utterly dire, has been singled out for such criticism. You are right to ask yourself if you want to be part of that. When they can't get people to work as "assessors" any more they might just be forced into reforming the system to do less harm. Or in an ideal world, no harm.

I tried my best to pass the test to become a PIP assessor (nurse here as well) and I'll just warn you it was incredibly hard. You have to be able to type very fast whilst someone is talking..... I had done a secretarial course years ago, and can touch type fairly quick but failed the test !

Decided it wasn't for me.. but good luck with it. I think it is quite a pressured job, and although 'sedentary' I think you'd be kept on your toes.

The fact you’re asking the question shows you care more than average. And what is better for society? Ethically dubious positions get taken up by people who care or those who don’t care? I think we should see more thoughtful people doing things like this or be solicitors, prison guards, traffic wardens, etc as it would make the world a better place.

I have been a PIP assessor. It's by far the worse job I've ever had. The back to back assessments are insane. They have strict audit targets and sack a lot of assessors. They would call me into a meeting at 8.30am tell me I was going to be sacked in 2 weeks if I didn't meet my audit targets and then I would be assessing a distressed client at 8.45am. You have rights for your current employer to make adjustments ie find you a more suitable nursing role so I would suggest you see what they can do for you.

Please please go for this job.

I've been through a few assessments both for PIP and other benefits and I could tell which assessors were the nurses.

Then there was the one that said because I can drive I can walk 50 metres, I can drive, but only with hand controls!

I've considered it. But I don't think it would allow me to work within my values as there is pressure to turn people down and I think that's why there's such high turnover for these roles, I think it would make me really unhappy.
There are so many non clinical roles in nursing, maybe explore some of those too first.

Why would PIP assessment pose a problem @jobdrama101 ? I mean it's quite straightforward: what is the person capable of physically. Mentally it's for the psychologist to assess which is waaayyy more complicated. Go for it!

You could say the same about social work and NHS then. How frustrating is it not for a social worker to constantly lower the bar for "acceptable" parenting because there are no funds/ ressources/ foster families.

I agree there are major problems in Social Work and the NHS but there aren't human rights violations of the same magnitude. People aren't ending up starving to death as a result of decisions made by social workers and NHS employees from what I understand (although do correct me if I'm wrong). It will get much much worse if the current proposals get through.

So many people in this thread saying this job is not morally questionable, but ignoring the posts from people who have actually done the job! I looked into this myself and it always sounded a bit too good to be true, the money is good and there are always roles available (red flag!)
You just need to Google reviews of the companies that hire PIP assessors to see how terrible it can be. I’ve seen nurses saying they’ve submitted reports and that they’ve been rejected, and have essentially been told to lie in order to make targets.
OP I knew from the title of your thread what role this would be about… if you haven’t already, do some research on the specific company hiring for the role you’re looking at, and find some reviews from staff. It was enough to put me off! I do hope you can find something that works for you though. Can you drive? I know someone who does at home TPN. I also know someone who does cardiac research and is fully WFH. The jobs can be hard to find but are out there - could also try making a LinkedIn profile?

This. You would be dealing with multiple distressed people like this. The number of people claiming for mental health is huge. I am on a PIP FB forum and virtually everyone says they sobbed through their assessment. This is likely to get ten times worse next year when people start feeling under even more pressure because they are at risk of losing their awards.
I've seen assessors at home assessments trying to type quickly with a laptop on their knee, it doesn't look easy !

My nurse PIP assessor was lovely and helped me get my PIP straight away. I was also a nurse with mobile issues. I'm a podiatrist now.

Would you mind saying why?

Hi OP. AHP here. Sorry you’ve found yourself in this situation. I’d speak to my manager about being redeployed within the trust, to a different nursing role tbh. I wouldn’t judge you for taking the PIP assessor role but I think it would be absolutely soul destroying and grind you down. Are you part of a union? Can you ask them about your current rights? Good luck!