To resent the U-turn on winter fuel allowance?

[BlueEyedStarling]

Perhaps I'm existing in a bubble, but all of the pensioners I know, are pretty well off, or comfortable, at least. I live and have older family in the South East, but my dad and his elderly partner, live in the North. Literally, all of them say they dont need the WFA, but happily accept it regardless and shouted from the rooftops when it was taken away from them. Just how long can the working age population keep paying for this increasing, triple-lock section of society who are, as a whole, the wealthiest amongst us? Personally, we fell through the gaps of being able to receive any child benefit (only just!), but have always been willing to accept that we didn't need it and therefore shouldn't have it. Is it that our middle-aged generation just dont shout as loudly about things that affect us? I do want to add that I am very aware that there are many pensioners who should be in receipt of the WFA and that the cut off was too low. Also, that our pensioners fair pretty badly in comparison to much of Europe. It seems criminal that it can't be means tested to benefit those who really do need it.

How have you concluded that there would be no saving from means testing? Is there data available on how much it would cost?

WFA is already means tested. It’s simply a question of where the threshold should be. I’m going to be even more disappointed in this government if they restore it to a universal benefit. Of course they could make it taxable but that would make it over generous.

I agree op.
This group of pensioners received full child benefit regardless of earnings, didn’t pay for their children’s dentist, didn’t pay thousands a year for their children to go to university, started receiving their pension at a younger age. I’m not saying they’ve had everything easy and many will definitely need the WFA, but I hope it is now just going to the ones who actually need it.

Average pensioner income in 2024 was £292 a week for single males, £278 a week (less than 15K a year) for single females & £597 a week (31K) for couples.
There will be high income pensioners, but they are definitely not the majority.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/pensioners-incomes-financial-years-ending-1995-to-2024

OP, you must know some very privileged pensioners.

I know several who are already collecting waste wood to store for next winter. Is this really what a G8 economy sees as suitable for our elderly and vulnerable? Collecting scrap from the hedgerows !

and why do you think they are living the life of luxury? Chance?

I agree with you OP, I’m in Scotland and we get free prescriptions, free bus passes for all children up to age 22 and over the 60s get their bus passes too and not to mentioned free University Tuition for all Scottish young people. I clearly benefit and it’s a wonderful thing to do when you have plenty of government funds however thethe NHS is falling apart and Schools are under resourced, I’d rather the money was spent

On an irrelevant note many of us who, as children, did receive free NHS dentistry in the 60’s and 70’s would rather not have had it as we ended up with a mouthful of amalgam fillings and PTSD! Dentists were known to be paid based on number of fillings (drill and fill) and fillings without any sort of anaesthetic were frequently given to children.

Why don’t you check your facts? There was no child benefit at all for the first child when I had mine. My dentist treats adult patients’ children for nothing. The bulk of university costs are covered by student finance. We didn’t receive our pension at a younger age, why do you think WASPI women were angry?

However when I started work, back in the dark ages, the basic rate of income tax was 33% with 9% NI on top. I can assure you that didn’t feel very easy.

I worked all the time whilst rearing kids, no subsidised childcare then. I waited 6 extra years for my state pension, and free school dentists were a nightmare few would want to revisit.

I rent and pay all my rent. No top ups.

I live in the SE where, apparantly, all pensioners are rich.🙄

I pay tax every month and always have.

I seemed to have missed the stereotype.

Having kids is a choice - getting old isn’t. 🤷‍♀️

Sorry, haven't time to read every post in detail but I can't seem to find the announcement that ALL pensioners will revert to receiving the WFA. I thought the latest was that the government have said they will look at it again and maybe raise the cut off point (but not, I believe, in time for the payment to be made next winter). Would be very interested in a reliable link which states things are going back to how they were very soon.

I believe the cut off point was too low and I know many low income older people who are really struggling and it might give them some relief. I don't think everyone should get it and hadn't realised this was now the plan.

I think it should be means tested.

My parents kicked up an almighty stink when it was removed. Because they've worked all their lives and therefore have "earned it."

Do they need it? No. They've got more money than either of them know what to do with. Do they WANT it. Absolutely. But they don't need it.

Like I said, I'm resentful of the incessant whinging.

And for the record, I flatly refused the offer of payment for landscaping the garden. Favouritism isn't the issue.

I have no idea what means testing costs, I'm just giving an example of why it might be worth means testing one and not the other purely on a cost savings basis.

@BlueEyedStarling
Perhaps I'm existing in a bubble

Yes you are living in a bubble of affluence.

A third of pensioners live in fuel poverty, most are not eligible for pension credit.
The average pensioner income is a bit below the living wage.
The group of people most likely to be living in poverty are older single women.
Something like 12% of pensioners pay higher rate tax, the usual measure of “affluence”.

For small flat rate benefits its costs more to means test than it saves unless you remove it also from those who need it. (Osborne didn’t save money by even the most simplistic 40% threshold method of means testing, he had to remove it entirely from large numbers of children to make the saving).

Or to put it another way - none of my colleagues are eligible for CB as they are over the threshold, obviously everyone is well off and nobody needs it so let's remove it altogether eh? Or is it just a bubble?

Its only on MN where “everyone” over pension age is rolling in it, taking five cruises a year and making bread from their children’s bones. In the fact based world, most pensioners are not in that situation.

It should be means tested. You can't say all pensioners are rich/well off because that's just not true. My gramp was well off, my nan on the other hand had to scrimp by on the bones of her arse. Not everyone bought houses when they were cheap enough, some pensioners still rent wether that private or council. You are very fortunate not to know any struggling pensioners. Just think of that and count yourself lucky,.don't stress about something you have zero control over.

Austerity involved huge cuts across virtually all departments. Tax credits, child benefits and youth services were cut, housing benefit was capped, workfare policies were tightened, disability benefits and services were cut, as were many other things.

The two big protected areas were pensions (the Triple Lock) and the NHS, which not coincidentally are two huge costs that benefit older people most. Why? Because there are lots of them and they vote.

Covid lockdowns was what put those people out of work to start with. And how was it funded? By borrowing, to be paid off by the working generation. To protect the people who are most vulnerable, the old. I’m not saying that was the wrong call morally or politically. I’m saying it quite clearly was an example of a policy response where the costs were borne by younger generations to benefit the older ones.

You need to fact check that because it absolutely was introduced as a top up, originally being means tested. Even now it’s not designed to be the sole income.

Triple lock was not protected in 2022/2023 Sunak suspended it.

Personally, I think the most vulnerable people in our society now are those without secure housing. Those who own their home, are in social housing tend to be fine and the former group needs extra help, not those in the latter group. There is nothing in the tax system acknowledging this basic fact that we all know to be an issue. If you live in a nicely insulated mortgage free house and have a small pension your situation with a free NHS for all, is completely different from someone at the mercy of a private landlord.

That’s right, thanks. I had to look it up. The income strand was suspended for a year (so that pensions only rose 3.1% not 8% that year) and then the full Triple Lock was reinstated from 2023/24 (when they rose 10.1%).

Because they tell me 🤷‍♂️

It was not a top up or means tested when the Welfare state was introduced.

It was universal funded by national insurance contributions.

My household collected scrap wood for 2 decades... we were not poor.

The number one issue for this country is housing costs. So much money is spent by the young on them servicing housing costs. So much wealth is locked up by the less young in housing. We need to at least halve the cost of housing to people feel rich enough to want to pay more tax, and also invest more money, and buy more goods and services, and generally live better lives. Just now everyone young is toiling under big housing costs or moving do a different country.

How do we do this? Restricting the size of a mortgage people can buy would be a start. Massive social housing building program alongside rent controls would be good. Ditching stamp duty and upping council tax to incentivise people to live in houses that meet their needs. Yes those sitting on big housing gains will be outraged. Let them be.