To think MIL shouldn't have said this

[rainbowsbutterfliescompromise]

13 year old daughter just showed MIL a new dress she bought for a family wedding (strappy floral New Look thing).

MIL said she liked it but then said "you need to make sure you don't wear clothes like that when walking outside as men might harass you or worse".

Aside from the fact that she isn't likely to be walking around in public in said dress, I'm really not happy with MIL implying my daughter is responsible for men's behaviour. I can still remember having this said to me as a teen and how uncomfortable it made me feel. I also remember being catcalled by men on the street - never in party clothes but more than often than not in my frumpy school uniform or a tracksuit.

I asked my husband to have a word, but he said there was no point and 'that's just the way her generation think'. AIBU to think that's a massive cop out?

Well, if you think your MIL should always keep her opinions to herself, then I suppose YANBU. But the reality of the world is, your MIL was right. Really it should be you warning your daughter about the attention she will get just for being a young woman, let alone one dressing in an eye catching way; and how to avoid/get out of situations as safely as possible.

Why are you pretending the MIL is wrong though? Like I said above, what would be wrong is implying it’s a woman’s fault if anything untoward happened to her. To pretend that skimpy outfits don’t attract unwanted attention is irresponsible at best. It’s a fact, it very much does. If the MIL had suggested however, that if anything happened to her GDD then it would be her fault because of the outfit, then that would be wrong.

I think this is one of the hardest things about having a female child, tbh. Having to explain that the world is full of men who will behave like arseholes and that women will too often be expected by society to take responsibility for that behaviour and too often blamed for it.

I think getting the message to your MIL that you don't want your daughter to be told that her clothing choices make her responsible for men's behaviour is fair. But I also think we need to ensure our daughters are equipped for the world in which they will have to exist, and that includes letting them know how to deal with bad male behaviour and, where possible, how to avoid it.

It's fucking hard to get the balance right tbh.

MIL told the truth and didn’t victim blame.

Women should dress the way they want but they also need to accept there are a lot of pervs in this world, hiding this truth from young women because it’s ugly and complicated only puts them at risk.

I would have this convo with your daughter, not about her dress sense, it’s only a symptom, but about many men being pervy, and I would offer her to join self-defence classes.

When i became a teen and men started to ogle, i felt so alone because nobody, no older woman ever mentioned it to me, so i thought it had to be me. This needs to change. Like Gisèle Pelicot said, the shame needs to change side. The world is full of pervy men, it’s not the world we want, but that’s the one we’re in, let’s stop hiding it.

I asked my husband to have a word, but he said there was no point and 'that's just the way her generation think'. AIBU to think that's a massive cop out?

Yes but so is asking your husband to have a word.

She's your daughter and your MIL needs telling.

The age a girls is first cat called is usually 12. It has NOTHING to do with what she is wearing.

we can all be as clear as we like about the issue of women and girls being in receipt of unwanted male attention. We can literally dress how we want, and we will get catcalls whatever. So as pp mentioned, we need to prepare our girls that this will happen no matter what they are wearing, and how to mitigate things.

And we need to call out men we know who do the catcalling, and to train our sons not to do it.

But the other issue is not speaking to other adults because they are not related to you. If the DH won't speak to his mum there could be several reasons for that. If my DH wouldn't speak to his mum - i would do it (i wouldn't ask him in the first place, i'd speak to her myself). I would be having discussions with him about why he doesn't want to though.

Well if she asks your DH what he thinks AFTER you have a word with her then she can do so.

It seems silly that you are making a point about women wearing what they want whilst at the same time not being able to vocalise what you want to your own MIL.

It also reduces your point about female freedom when you are trying to use her male son's opinions to sway her own! Which may in themselves just be a reflection of your own opinions!

Just have a word with MIL yourself and explain to your daughter your own feelings and why you disagree with her grandmother. That's the best way to give your daughter balance.

I would have said there and then “unfortunately some men do harass women but they tend to do it whatever you are wearing , and it is never the target’s fault, whatever she is wearing! We women of all ages have to stand firm that both harassment and victim blaming are wrong. Dd, your dress looks lovely have you tried it on with your shoes yet? MIL what are you wearing? “

Be prepared, equip yourself with some calm conversational ways to address this if it comes up again.

It might make too big a deal of it for your DH to have a special talk about it, especially if he wasn’t present when it was said. And it will look as if you can’t speak for yourself.

If he was present, he should bloody well have said that yes some men behave horribly but it isn’t the woman’s responsibility.

And he needs to think twice about his ageist ‘that generation’ belief.

I am old enough to be grandmother to an 11 year old, and it was my mother’s generation who started highlighting the sexual objectification of women, celebrating women’s sexual freedom etc. FFS, which generation both invented the mini skirt and fought for the sex discrimination act?

I suspect your MIL meant in a more protective way rather than a slot hamming way. When I was younger, and being harassed as most of us were, the reality is I was always more harassed when I was wearing short revealing clothes then when I was in a tracksuit. As while we don’t want police our daughters clothing, we can help them feel a little bit more comfortable.

Your MIL's comment was entirely inappropriate.

Young GD of 13 excitedly showing off a beautiful dress for a big event and that crap comment sucked all the joy out of it. Why couldn't MIL allow her to enjoy the moment.. She's 13 for heaven's sake.

The whole issue about safeguarding herself and being aware of the dangers of being harrassed could easily have been dealt with by you at a more appropriate time and not ruined her excitement of looking forward to a big occasion.

I'd be telling her to keep comments like that to herself in future. What miserable thing to say to your DD.

and I should be able to leave my front door and my car unlocked, but there you go.

The OP should have a discussion with her own child, and can tell her she doesn't agree with the way MIL framed it, but it's not unreasonable to be protective of a 13 yo.

I don't think MIL was wrong, she's entitled to her opinion.

Women who are modestly dressed and wearing hijabs have still been sexually harassed. Do you think that women in Afghanistan who are completely covered from head to toe are safe from predatory men?

It's a slippery slope from telling girls and young women that they shouldn't wear a strappy dress from New Look when out and about as it's too provocative and could lead to them being sexually harassed to blaming women for being sexually assaulted because their clothing wasn't modest enough.

except in real life it does.

We might not like it, but it doesn't change the unwanted behaviour. I am not victim-blaming, but that's the current state of things.

It doesn't stop me wearing what I want.

Wrong.
See Everyday Sexism project. Girls reporting being cat called in jogging bottoms and tees or frumpy school uniform. Stop pushing the idea that children are attracting male sexual attention through their clothes.

@DuckbilledSplatterPuff thank you for this, you've articulated another reason why the conversation made me so angry. DD is a sweet, fairly young-for-her-age teen and was just so excited about her dress, and MIL had to drag the conversation down. Totally didn't feel like an appropriate time to have even a well-meant conversation, but she absolutely has form for sucking the joy out of things!

@IPMMIL “needs telling” what exactly?! She’s not wrong! It would be neglectful of OP to pretend that men don’t ogle women/girls in skimpy outfits ffs. You’re conflating the disgraceful “women/girls who wear revealing outfits are asking for it” narrative with the simple clear fact that it does attract male attention, sadly.
My DD is almost 11. Imagine I didn’t ever inform my DD of this fact in order to be politically correct and she went out as a teenager, in an extra short mini skirt and very low cut top for example and got unwanted attention from older men… She would very likely feel upset & confused. Just wrong.
Nobody is suggesting actually controlling their clothing choices, just informing/forewarning them of what might happen. I agree it was said at the wrong moment and should’ve been said to OP who could then have chosen when to have a chat with DD about it later. But MIL was not wrong, unfortunately. Not remotely.

I don't think there's any need for either of you to be 'having words' with MIL. She wasn't implying blame, and she didn't intend anything other than protectiveness.

You might prefer she hadn't said it (as would I) but I don't think she deserves a telling off. From your DD's perspective, your life attitudes are more important than something that a grandma said. So you just confirm that no woman or girl is to blame for men's actions, and talk about her safety in general terms. This one off comment from someone two generations above your DD will not have the impact that you seem to think.

I can't help feeling that there's the fact that it was your MIL saying this that was a factor.

MIL “needs telling” what exactly?!

To mind her own business and let the child's parents decide what is and is not appropriate, with regards to their own daughter.

well, it would have been better to say something there and then. No need to make a scene, but sulking and asking your husband to have a word is not a great example for your child.

Actually, I am not wrong.

I never said it doesn't happen regardless, I said that it's worst when you wear certain types of clothes.

If you are a woman, surely you must have noticed it by yourself.

Ridiculous and regressive nonsense.

@Penthrowingsurvivor and others - but I wasn't there at the time to say something. My daughter told us when we got home! I could have phoned her after, yes, but i still think it's better coning from my husband - just as i would address any issues with my own parents. Also I think it's better coning from him for reasons I've mentioned upthread

I do think the MIL was wrong. There's a time and a place for everything.

That 13 year old girl, instead of looking at her new dress and thinking it looks great and she's pleased to wear it now has had a suggestion that implies (at the back of her mind) the idea

that there was something wrong with her choice of dress,
that its too provocative,
that she will be dressing in a way to attract unwanted male attention
that she herself has chosen something that will generate this attention so it will be her fault.

That's very undermining and could damage her confidence in herself, make her worry about what she's wearing. Especially as she was so delighted with her choice originally. She will doubt her judgement after that correction.
Why couldn't the MIL let her 13 year old Granddaughter just enjoy showing off her dress without being left with the impression that there's something wrong with it?

Of course young girls/women should be warned about personal safety... but not like that.. I used to feel that way about relatives making comments about children's weight/eating habits/diets.... They are sensitive and someone in their family circle making stupid comments about these kinds of issues can leave a very poor impact on them.

Yikes