AIBU to expect no conflict for being gay?

[ShyRacoon]

I often feel like i live in a world which doesn't reflect how i want to live my life and everyday there is always a struggle to get through it.

What i mean is..

im a 36 year old male, my Boyfriend is 35, neither of us are stereotypical gay men and that's perhaps why its difficult

its like there's an expectation we are straight and we have to explain everywhere we go.

and then there is the conflicts we often find ourselves in, which is the point of the post, sometimes i just want to hold my boyfriends hand, not for long we don't go skipping through the street singing "we're gay" at the top of our lungs ensuring everyone knows, its often discreet but of course if you stare long enough you'll notice. (stare being the operative word here)

people will point and whisper stuff to their friends/partner, which is not so bad, but then you get comments which fall into two categories, derogative and then aggressive

the aggressive are more concerning, not that I'm scared or afraid, I'm an ex semi professional boxer, but fighting is for the ring, i despise it in any other form and just want to have a night out without conflict.

my friends suggest its because of my build, and being gay is almost an excuse for them to start something, and i should stick to the "gay scene" which i hate for entirely other reasons, i just want to go out and be myself without any hassle, its that too much to ask?

Friday night out in Birmingham nowhere fancy just the cozy club and a group of men saw me and my boyfriend together and told us to "leave it out" and "stop or get knocked out"
that was enough for them to get evicted from the bar from onlooking security without me saying anything.

they then spent their Friday night waiting outside for 2.5 hours for us to leave to try and cause more of a scene, i just don't really understand the mindset?

this isn't an isolated incident this is every time in a town or city something similar will happen, i just dont really understand how im effecting their lives so much to ruin their own night out waiting for me?

they have nothing to gain from it, calling the police each time is just such a faff, i dont want to fight them and usually just ignore them and get into an uber.
the only way it ever becomes a crime is if its physical so consequences for actions are lacking.

is it too much to ask to be gay in 2025 and not get challenged about it?

im not even talking about huge PDAs either i too find the idea of two people regardless of gender stuck to each other like a pair of leeches in a public setting inappropriate.

am i being unreasonable, can i not hold my bfs hand at all ? i mean you cant catch gay... surely its harmless? how am i even effecting them?

idk i just feel im fighting an endless battle sometimes and i need to hide any affection outside the house, but that's not me, and every time i want to hold his hand now these daemons circle in my head worried about what people will think, say, do.

I don’t usually discuss my sexual preferences with strangers and your family knows.

The arseholes are noisy so they take up a lot of room. The club was full of lots of other people who just got on with their evening. It’s annoying.

To men who have a warped and toxic view of masculinity, your existence threatens the ‘social order’ in their minds. They are also probably astounded and maybe even a bit jealous that you feel free and confident enough to be yourself in public, not caring what other men think. Deep down they want that too but have been denied that by the very patriarchal norms they uphold. Men conditioned not to express any emotion besides anger are prone to violence, which is why they are so dangerous.

It’s a sad state of affairs for all of humanity, really, including them. They are victims of their own hatred. You’ve done nothing wrong though, and should be able to go wherever you want and do whatever you want without harassment. I’m sorry you have to experience this. Stay safe.

Male aggression as usual. Some men feel affronted by male homosexuality - they certainly don't get annoyed by Lesbianism!

Most people won't be at all affronted by you holding hands with your bf, but there are knuckle draggers everywhere in little pockets.

You just need to be aware of the type of people around you and behave Accordingly or don't go in there - like 99% of Women have to do 24/7!

There will ALWAYS be twats like them, I'm afraid.

Take Care

I can't believe attitudes like this are still so much in existence.
I grew up in the 70s and 80s. I saw all the 70s shows mocking women, black people and homosexuals. I saw the 'gender-bending', I saw the aids 'epedemic' and the disgusting attitudes of people towards others.
As a teen, I went to gay clubs with my friends as those were places we didn't feel threatened, stalked or harassed.

I'm straight but I don't understand why people are so disrespectful and so idiotic. Wanting to have the same rights isn't "shoving it in our face".
You have every right to hold your boyfriends hand in public. Or in your own home.

I wish as a so-called 'advanced civilisation ' we could just let people live their lives.

You should be able to go out, hold hands, kiss and just be, wherever you like, whenever you like.
In certain areas you can and noone will turn an eye. It's 2025 ffs.
However, for some homophobes out there in a stereotypical city centre, you're a target and yes, especially if well-built. Some will be looking for a fight for any reason.
I am sorry this has happened to you and more than once. I know you said you were not keen on the "scene" but there will be gay-friendly bars in all cities that have different vibes. I'd find one you're comfortable with and make that your regular.

So sorry that you have to tolerate that OP. Its so sad and shocking in this day and age. You should be able to hold your boyfriend's hand whenever and wherever you like.

It’s not too much to ask. You’re just getting on with your life. You aren’t affecting them in the slightest, they have no reason to act as they do. I’m sorry there are still people like this around. I hope there are fewer than there used to be, but still too many.

Not sure what that means exactly but if it's referring to OP's line about explaining themselves - that's not about sexual preferences, it's about them being who they are. Straight people don't have to discuss being straight as it's still a default assumption in many unenlightened places so if OP isn't presenting as stereotypically gay and people are making assumptions that he has a wife or whatever, then course he'd want to reframe who he is in their heads. It's not about sex, it's about who he is 24/7. Same as the ease of being able to casually hold hands, which straight people do without thinking in myriad situations.

It's mad that people still react badly to this and I'm afraid it can be a small-minded thing in some less cosmopolitan areas, but shocking that even in a city like Birmingham there is intolerance and even hate. So sorry you have to face that, OP. I don't know what the answer is apart from limiting yourselves to certain areas where this kind of thing is thankfully a distant memory, but agree that you shouldn't have to do that.

OP, your message hit a nerve. DS is gay. He and his boyfriend show PDA - nothing more than any straight couple would, but they hold hands in public, they hug and ruffle each other's hair, they kiss briefly on the lips.

I absolutely hate that this makes people around them stare. No one bats an eyelid if I hold DH's hand or hug him. But as far as I know, they have never been physically threatened for it. They tend to go to slightly more upmarket bars and clubs - maybe that's why.

Can you hunt around for some venues that aren't gay scene but are less likely to attract the kind of boozed up blokes looking for a fight?

All I can say is, I admire DS for behaving like he has the same rights as straight people. He just thinks: be the change you want to see in the world. And always has - right from his early teens. The more normal it is to see gay people showing affection, the less remarkable it will become and people will stop ogling.

Easy for me to say, I know. But I used to breastfeed in public for the exact same reason. Because I was just feeding my baby, using breasts for what they were designed for. I was sick of people acting like it was a bit shocking, when no-one batted an eyelid at babies being fed from bottles in public. I always did it fairly discreetly but I never locked myself away in some smelly changing room. I'd get lecherous old men staring and some people looking embarrassed and decided not to give a shit. Because unless women remind the world their breasts are for feeding babies not sexual arousal, then we will continue to feel embarrassed at doing something entirely natural.

Being gay and feeling affection for your partner is entirely natural to you. Take the right to express it as normal. But also, take the right to find environments where you feel at home but are not hassled. Everyone does that to some extent. There are loads of places I'd never drink as a single woman, or go to in a group of women if we didn't want to be hassled. There's a whole range of places to go between gay scene and clubs where halfwitted thugs hang out.

It's not okay that you have that fear. It's a very similar one that women have when out.

Unwanted comments, men loitering to get us. Staring, pointing. Threatening if we don't smile or respond as they want us to.

I'm not excusing what you are going through but I find it interesting that with you being gay you are experiencing these things and it is affecting you enough to make a post here. Where for women it's just "life".

It highlights for me how men really go through life in an easy way.

I'm sorry you can't hold hands, the men who are acting this way are deeply insecure and unhealthy and are a menace to everyone.

Straight bloke here

you absolutely have the right to expect to be able to enjoy your night out in peace, hold your boyfriends hand, kiss, and just generally do whatever is normal for a couple on a night out.

unfortunately some men take exception to gay men. God knows why, some combination of stupidity, toxic masculinity, repressed homosexuality, or just being a common or garden twat.

I’m frequently in a position on mumsnet of feeling I need to apologies on behalf of (in this case straight) men who are arseholes.

Hate to say this but they very much do get affronted by lesbianism, all for the same reasons. When I was with a woman, men would often shout things at us like "oy lesbo" and then if we didn't respond, you'd get stuff like "no wonder they're lesbians, they couldn't get a man looking like that" etc etc. I'm sure butch/masculine lesbians have it much worse as we were both innocuous-looking women with long hair who didn't look stereotypically gay.

OP, I'm sorry you've been treated like this but I'm not surprised. I never held my girlfriend's hand in public because it wasn't worth the aggro. But it's shit.

Agree
Any discussion about homophobia or issues leads to some sort of comments about how straight people never need to declare their sexuality. People don't realise they do it all the time.

Coming out isn't a singular event, it's at least a weekly occurrence for me, because any mention of my wife, children etc is "talking about sexuality". (Soon the thread will be full of people disputing that because they never talk about their lives ever and why would people at work know they had kids or were married?)

For example i faced some flack for wanting "gay wedding' items because why make such a scene

However the mr and mrs signs are sold and seen as just "wedding" items that are generic yet the mrs and mrs ones are seen as some sort of extroverted focus on sexuality sold in the "gay wedding items" aisle

Don't even get me started on the seperate wedding card section or why even wedding cards with silly things like toast on them have a boy slice and of toast to play to the hetros!

Another Mum with a gay son🙂it is not unreasonable to expect to just get on with life however there are truly ignorant ppl in life and unfortunately probably always will be.
I am far too old to advise on places to go but acknowledging you should be able to go wherever you want, is going to more couples places less confrontational?
My gay son is fortunate to work in a very inclusive company, has an accepting family and friends, a long term partner and is getting married in June. Could not be happier for him, it would have been unimaginable years ago. The world is changing thankfully but so slowly. 💕

My 17yo son is gay and has had a boyfriend for over a year. He has told me that if they hold hands while out and about, someone invariably makes a remark. And it’s not always boys/men who say stuff. They’ve heard things like ‘That’s disgusting’, ‘What did I just see?’ and ‘Seriously lads…?’ So they don’t hold hands anymore. In saying that, DS is a bit like me and not really one for lots of hugs and contact, so it probably bothers him less than it bothers his boyfriend. But that’s not the point! We’re in NI, so always playing catch up with the modern world when it comes to acceptance of people’s sexuality etc. I do worry about him. All his mates are completely fine with his sexuality (as they should be). It’s strangers out looking for trouble that I worry about.

I’m really sorry you’re experiencing these problems.

Trust me plenty of men certainly do get get annoyed by lesbianism! Or they fetishise it neither is good.
OP sorry you have experienced this, it's awful.

@ShyRacoon , your post made me so sad. My husband and I are very good friends with a male gay couple and see them often. I’ve noticed they don’t show any physical signs of affection even when they’re with us who they’ve known for years. We’re all in our early 60’s so they had to navigate being gay in a time when attitudes were more hostile and of course AIDS didn’t help. I’ve often thought to ask why they don’t hold hands but don’t because it’s not really my business and spending time with them is not about interrogating them, we just enjoy each other's company.
Being gay doesn’t define you as a person anymore than me being short defines me. We all ought to be able to live our lives, so long as we’re not causing any harm, (and for clarity you are not) as we wish to. Of course you should be able to hold hands and you should never have to pretend to be what you’re not. The problem is there unfortunately are some stupid, ignorant people (generally men) who for some inexplicable reason appear to feel threatened by gay men while simultaneously absolutely adoring the prospect of being in bed with two lesbians. The fact that neither the gay men or the lesbians would be remotely interested in them seems to pass them by. 🤷🏼‍♀️
I don’t know Birmingham well at all are there some more upmarket areas you could go to? Might they not have such a proliferation of ignorant oiks?
I really wish I had the answer for you and I wish that answer was to go about your life and ignore the idiots but I don’t want you to put yourself in harm’s way. On this occasion maybe speaking to other gay people about how they navigate this issue would be more helpful?
I hope you know that most people these days couldn’t give a flying fiddle who you love or what you do in the bedroom, it’s completely irrelevant to us in our relationship with you. We judge you on who you are and some of us might not like you and many will learn to love you. Plenty of people haven’t liked me along my life path. I hope you find some help and comfort in the responses here. Xx

Yes it those type of men looking for any excuse and yes I suspect your build has something to do with it.

My DH is tall and solid and has had men randomly try and pick fights with him, one just came up and shoved him over 🤷🏽‍♀️

Where in the op does he say he 'discusses his sexual preferences with strangers'

He just wants to be able to hold hands and do the same stuff anyone in a relationship may do in public.

When I'm out with my husband, as a straight woman, I can hold his hand, give him a kiss, flirt with him etc etc and nobody would threaten me. The op wanting the same has fuck all to do with wanting to discuss sexual preferences.

What drew you to mumsnet to start this thread OP?

Why is that when straight couples show affection or simply make it obvious that they are a couple, nobody considers that to be 'discussing sexual preferences with strangers'? But when a gay couple does the same, you think that's somehow flaunting their sexual preferences?

I'm straight. If I hold my partner's hand for a moment or greet him with a peck on the cheek or put my arm around him for a minute in public, that's not 'discussing my sexual preferences with strangers'. It's just living an ordinary life and nobody points, stares, whispers, glares or makes derogatory remarks about it. So why shouldn't a gay couple expect to be able to do the same?

I saw something on a post last week about challenging assumptions, that we should try asking straight people (men especially) 'How did you know you were straight?', because no one ever asks that and it highlights how annoying it must be for gay people to have to explain themselves for just being who they are. I'm obviously not saying that we should ask people that, just that some could use it to think about all the ways in which straight people never have to justify or explain who they are while for others it can be an constant stress, never being able to take it for granted that they'll be accepted and not questioned (even nicely) or challenged.

Are gay men excluded from Mumsnet? Or do you think he has a hidden agenda? Maybe spell out what your real question is instead of this disingenuous, passive aggressive nonsense..

Does it matter? It's an intelligent post and worthy of discussion.