Jolly Racist Banter

[Dogdidmyhomework]

Sorry I've gone on a bit...

One of my dps was Irish the other English. I was born and brought up in the UK. I live in the UK. My partner is English.

Twice now my ds (late teens) has told me that one of his uncles and a cousin has indulged in some 'hilarious' piss-taking about his Irish roots.

Last night he said that at a recent family get together another uncle and his dad (my partner) were joining in.

The sort of thing I'm talking about ranges from repeating such wittisisms as 'pig under my arm' and 'shillelagh' in a cod Irish accent to references to killing British policemen.

My partner's family like to say lots of 'close to the bone' contraversial things on all sorts of topics when they get together and laugh uproariously. It's their way of bonding and being together (thankfully infrequent). It's usually tedious but I just tend to ignore.

I've previously made it clear to my partner that I don't find the Irish stuff funny.

My dc doesn't find it funny but also doesn't seem bothered by it he says he doesn't feel anything about it.

Last night I felt very angry and upset because my partner didn't seem to understand why I felt disrespected and sad for my ds.

Worst of all my partner basically told me it was all in good fun and I should get over myself.

After a discussion/argument that followed a well worn path he did eventually apologise for unintentionally hurting my feelings.

I suffered a bit of name calling in the seventies at junior school because of my Irish parent, so I'm undoubtedly triggered.

I do recognise my partner and his family love my ds and wouldn't want to hurt him; I don't think they'd want to upset me. This kind of 'jolly banter' is just 'their way' (they'd say).

My partner can be pretty hopeless when it comes to emotions.
He does show love and care in other ways though.

This morning I'm less angry but I still feel hurt. I wish in a way I'd said nothing because we were all having a nice evening and now there's that awkward post argument phase to get through.

This post no doubt raises all sorts of questions but the general one is -
my partner feels I'm being unreasonable not to take it all as a jolly banter, am I?

Welcome! I bet people will go on being nice.

Of course they are, it’s rare for people just to stick to one “ism”

Ever met a racist who loves gay people?

Mostly good feelings going both ways?

Sorry but i think thats terribly naive. And wrong

I would say from being in ireland many times, that a huge amount of people there speak about English people in an extrememly negative way.

A lot of them hate English people.

I also know of a lot of my irish friends who have recieved huge abuse when they came to england

I went to schools in england and ireland

Its true that English schools don't teach much history - about the times England did things wrong to ireland. The english aristocracy at the time invaded ireland, took all the land, caused a famine, made one million people starve to death.

Ireland fought for freedom last century , but England wouldnt give all of the land back. Which is why the UK still owns northern ireland

This is not taught much in history in schools in England
. It is taught in schools in Ireland.

You say he’s “a quarter Irish” but does he have any real connection with that? My daughter technically is a quarter English, but the kind of English banter that goes on in Scotland completely goes past her. She considers herself Scottish.

You can be offended by their comments if you like, call it out if that is what you want to do but it seems strange to be offended on his behalf when he is old enough to have his own view.

I’m not a fan of this kind of “banter” within families because what it usually means is a couple of loud old blokes make everyone else the butt of their terribly offensive comments and they hate if they are in the firing line, but I’ll call a stop to it right from the start.

One of the Tory MPs in the news this week for apparantly making a flippant remark about the Irish potato famine.

Its all over instagram

Not quite.

As many people on here have pointed out, racism is prejudice against race, not only colour. So yes it's racist for OP's family to be treated like that. However there's more to it than that.

There's usually a historic context of subjugation/colonialism/exploitation. At minimum, there's a power imbalance. Trump's ambush of Cyril Ramaphosa is an example. Calling for anyone's death is wrong, but trying to claim he was racist AGAINST white South Africans is a false equivalence.

So, if you're from an exploited or marginalised group you can't really be racist against a group of white people. But for white Brits to mock the Irish, yes, that's racist.

Another fair point. He does have some real connection with his Irish quarter in that he does Irish cultural activities, which means he spends a lot of time with Irish people (and we go to Ireland once or twice a year) but I accept that is a very far cry from feeling a visceral connection.

I am glad if he doesn't feel hurt by his uncle's et al's comments but as someone else said the feeling of being "othered" may well seep in.

Where I live, there is a saying "thick as a Newtown doorstep", referring to a sandwich from an area that was historically Irish. It's said by young people as well as old and it means someone is stupid.
I've often wondered whether it would still be used if the area was historically Asian or Caribbean or African. I don't think it would, because people would, rightly, call it out as racist.
It should not be acceptable just because the people concerned were white Irish.

I'm just going by my experience. I have never personally experienced anti English sentiment in Ireland unless you count some some rebel songs, but I know full well it exists.

I said mostly ie more than 50%. I think it's unlikely the majority of English people harbor ill will towards Irish people and vice versa but I could never know.

Maybe "mostly good feelings" sounds too Polly Annaish I'll amend that to "mostly good, combined with no feelings".

Why does he want to have citizenship through his grandad. He's not lived there. This is a lack of integration and carrying a preference for somewhere that's not even his culture or background since he's not lived there. Despising the country you live in.

Eh?

So he can get an EU passport of course.

Everyone with an irish grandparent, wants an irish passport

Eh? Why? There are very few restrictions on travel in the EU for the UK citizens, in spite of what the clickbait following ignoramus will have the rest of us believe.
He's never lived there, he doesn't belong there but he wants a passport so travels a bit easier?
This answers the question - it's a lack of integration and contempt for the country that has raised and nurtured him and given him freedom and opportunity to travel. Not really identifying with the country he was born and raised in.

Thanks all for some really interesting perspectives.

Maybe one reason the uncle (my brother in law) et al feel able to take the piss out of being Irish is that they just does not see me (or my son) as Irish at all.

That wouldn't make sense in one way because why would they bother to say the the "jokes" they do?

On the other hand if I or my son had an Irish accent would the jokes be forthcoming? Probably not to my son's face.

This make me think about the phenomenon of being second generation Irish in the UK and having an English parent to boot.

But I'm pontificating and I mustn't derail my own thread...

What. Are you serious? Do you really not know this.

Its not about short term travel.

Its about moving to another eu country to work. Lots of people want to move , live and work somewhere else

Its very diffiicult to move to an EU country , if you have a UK passport.

Its extremely easy to move to an EU country if you have an Irish passport

This is a really interesting perspective.

Where have I suggested he or I have contempt for the UK? We don't have contempt for the UK, far from it, but I'm intrigued as to how you have inferred that from what I have written?

 What is the issue with him becoming an Irish citizen (which would entitle him to obtain an Irish passport) as he entitled so to be? 

What do you mean by "lack of integration"? He has lived in the UK and thus is fully integrated here. It is true he is not fully integrated in Ireland he's never lived there so that's no surprise but what's the problem? 

He might want to live/work/study in Ireland one day, I hope he does, what would be the problem with that?

He might want to be able to move freely to any other EEA country? What would be the problem with that? 

I have always been an Irish citizen, I didn't need to apply, but have never lived there beyond stretches of a maximum of 6 weeks. Do you see a problem with  me being an Irish citizen, if so what is it?

sorry that's gone a bit weird don't know why.

If Ian Paisley Jr of all people can encourage people to apply for Irish passports then why not OP’s son? @Ifpicklesweretickles the Irish diaspora are very spread out all over the world (for well known historical reasons) which is why they allow passport applications from people with grandparents born in Ireland. Lots of people have 2 passports particularly post Brexit - very sensible if you ask me.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/unionist-ian-paisley-jr-mp-constituents-apply-republic-of-ireland-eire-passports-a7102761.html

Whatever the reason, OP, it’s lacking in intellect. What on earth attracts you to a partner who finds this kind of base racist, stereotypical, outdated ‘banter’ even remotely acceptable, let alone amusing?

Provide a better role model for your son.

My point is unless people know my name I can pass quietly through life without being abused for my heritage- black people don’t have that privilege

Yes, I do understand that.

But if a black child were bullied in school because of their race, wouldn’t those bullying incidents be classed as racism?
I don’t see much of a difference in these type of school-related incidents and don’t see why some should be classed as racism and some shouldn’t.

Please don’t misunderstand me, I do understand black people have a much harder time of it overall in the UK. Of course I do.
But just comparing two similar incidents in school? In both cases a child being bullied for their race, one black, one Irish. I’m really not sure they should be classed differently and only one seen as a racist incident? But I could be wrong 🤔

I’m just saying, as the daughter of an Irish immigrant, I don’t see it as racism just xenophobia and bigotry

it's a lack of integration and contempt for the country that has raised and nurtured him and given him freedom and opportunity to travel.

You have a typo there. It should say "recently made it harder for him to travel".
It is unquestionably easier to travel, study, get a job and live in the EU with an Irish passport than with a UK one.

Yes was that poster for real. "Gave him opportunity to travel"
Having a UK passport limits peoples freedom. The UK passport is a weak passport

The Irish passport is now officially the strongest passport in the world. You have a lot more freedom to travel.

There is still a lot of anti-Irish stuff around - I only found this out since I've had a Northern Irish partner. As OP says, it's often in the form of "jolly racist banter". He discovered he was referred to as "the terrorist" behind his back at work, and he gets all the stupid irish people jokes, drunk stereotypes, people imitating irish accents.
I wouldn't have known about it if it wasn't for his experience.