Jolly Racist Banter

[Dogdidmyhomework]

Sorry I've gone on a bit...

One of my dps was Irish the other English. I was born and brought up in the UK. I live in the UK. My partner is English.

Twice now my ds (late teens) has told me that one of his uncles and a cousin has indulged in some 'hilarious' piss-taking about his Irish roots.

Last night he said that at a recent family get together another uncle and his dad (my partner) were joining in.

The sort of thing I'm talking about ranges from repeating such wittisisms as 'pig under my arm' and 'shillelagh' in a cod Irish accent to references to killing British policemen.

My partner's family like to say lots of 'close to the bone' contraversial things on all sorts of topics when they get together and laugh uproariously. It's their way of bonding and being together (thankfully infrequent). It's usually tedious but I just tend to ignore.

I've previously made it clear to my partner that I don't find the Irish stuff funny.

My dc doesn't find it funny but also doesn't seem bothered by it he says he doesn't feel anything about it.

Last night I felt very angry and upset because my partner didn't seem to understand why I felt disrespected and sad for my ds.

Worst of all my partner basically told me it was all in good fun and I should get over myself.

After a discussion/argument that followed a well worn path he did eventually apologise for unintentionally hurting my feelings.

I suffered a bit of name calling in the seventies at junior school because of my Irish parent, so I'm undoubtedly triggered.

I do recognise my partner and his family love my ds and wouldn't want to hurt him; I don't think they'd want to upset me. This kind of 'jolly banter' is just 'their way' (they'd say).

My partner can be pretty hopeless when it comes to emotions.
He does show love and care in other ways though.

This morning I'm less angry but I still feel hurt. I wish in a way I'd said nothing because we were all having a nice evening and now there's that awkward post argument phase to get through.

This post no doubt raises all sorts of questions but the general one is -
my partner feels I'm being unreasonable not to take it all as a jolly banter, am I?

The delicious irony is that lots of British people would love an Irish passport now

id pull him up on it

This.

It’s why people who would otherwise be horrified to be called racist feel comfortable spreading derogatory tropes about gypsies, travellers and Jewish people too. It’s not ok.

And? People thought Bernard Manning was hilarious at one point.

If they aren't white, that isn't relevant if it is their Irishness that is being mocked. I am aware of Ignatiev's book, which is called 'how the Irish became white' not 'how the Irish failed to become white'. I'm sorry, but I have seen a few too many Irish and Italians try to equate the prejudice they faced historically with contemporary racism.

Yes, sometimes, just before I left England, someone in the very Brexity area we lived in last would manage the triple whammy of (1) saying they’d voted ‘Leave’, (2) making an anti-Irish remark, and (3) congratulating themselves on managing to get an Irish passport via a grandparent whose nationality they were happy to make jibes at. All in the same five-minute conversation. Sometimes in the same breath.

Interesting, could you expand on the point you are making, just so I am clear? Especially, 'I've seen a few too many'...

My dad was an Irish immigrant and basically gave me a name that’s ’Irish McIrishface’ and growing up in the 70’s and 80’s I was subjected to bullying and abuse in school etc.

its lazy nasty xenophobic behaviour but I don’t equate it to racism because if you don’t know my name I’m just another generic white woman - I’m not targeted just for existing and being a different colour.

id call out anti Irish bullying and attitudes every time but I honestly don’t face racism like my black friends do.

A lot of Irish Americans derail talk about anti Black racism in order to claim that Irish people were as or even more discriminated against than Blacks in the US. I apologise, though, because I don't want to in my turn derail your thread. I don't think the way your inlaws talk is acceptable in the slightest and I don't want to imply I think otherwise.

And you get to legislate on how Irish peiole and Italians experience discrimination, do you? By what authority?

And I can assure you that black Irish people in England experience a tweaked version of the hoary old tropes. When I first lived in England, the ‘jokes’ were from people who just couldn’t get past that Thick Paddy Irishwoman was at Oxford. I have an only child — jokes about how hilarious that an Irish couple didn’t have a giant family. Black Irish people, based on what I saw around my godson when he visited us, got predictable hilarity about his skin colour and not being red-haired and pale, and some fairly offensive stuff about where was he really from (clue — Dublin wasn’t the right answer), and ‘Here, David, did you know the Irish now come in chocolate?’, Irishness and blackness apparently being incompatible.

Again, obviously a small minority of people, but unpredictable, hurtful, not something I wanted my own son to grow up with.

My dad was an Irish immigrant and basically gave me a name that’s ’Irish McIrishface’ and growing up in the 70’s and 80’s I was subjected to bullying and abuse in school etc.
its lazy nasty xenophobic behaviour but I don’t equate it to racism because if you don’t know my name I’m just another generic white woman

@ghostyslovesheets
But the school bullies did know your name? Isn’t that why they were targeting you?
I don’t actually understand your point re the school bullying, sorry.
I don’t think abuse needs to be from strangers to be ‘worthy’ of being called racism.

I get that you don’t stand out otherwise, walking down the street for example. Much worse when you do, absolutely agree with you there 🙁

Yes of course, that's true.

I see. Don't worry about derailing thread. The derailment is interesting and so long as decorum is maintained is much better for me than re running last night's domestic unpleasantness on a loop in my head.

My great grandparents were Irish and I’m just jealous that I can’t get an Irish passport but still had to put up with the anti Irish, anti catholic comments ( I had a very Irish surname).
However, having been raised in the West Midlands the black community suffered far worse than the Irish imo.

Jolly racist banter is usually just (badly) disguised racism. Even if it's not meant, the fact that you don't like it means they shouldn't do it.

Unfortunately so. I've seen it quite a bit. Even when Irish people talk about how this phrase is racist, plenty of posters will state don't be ridiculous, I never knew it to mean that, it's only a bit of fun etc.
If your humour involves making fun of any ethnicity it's not humour, it's racism.
If you're told by a member of that community that it's offensive, it's not up to you to decide, you listen and take that on board.
Your DS might not "get" that now but subconsciously all this "othering" of Irishness will lodge somewhere.
I'm sorry this happened to you.

How old is your son and his cousins and where do you live that these references are still quite common even presumably in a young generation? My DC have an Irish surname (it is my married name) but where I am no one blinks an eyelid about it. Tbh having an Irish surname, DH has a different ethnicity from his Mother, I have Scandinavian family and when they arrived here then of the century to work in London it was something they were discriminated for as well. None of this impacts us now though. Growing up in London in the 90s the racism was apparent and awful for people of colour but I did recall Irish racism due to references to the IRA but now I'm surprised that young people know of these.

That should read tbh, DH'S ethnicity from his Mother is more apparent but no one states anything about his Irish Surname.

When some of my relatives arrived the the turn of the century that was supposed to read.

If it doesn't bother your son I'd not feel sad on his behalf.

I suppose one thing to consider is from their pov, your son is one of them. It's not like making fun of an out-group, they are ribbing a family member in a way that they see as reserved for the in-group. That's a differernt dynamic, and maybe why your son doesn't care - he knows he's part of the in group, these people are not his in-laws, they are his blood.

Families can be very differernt. My mum's family would never do that stuff and would think it's crass, though their family is quite dysfunctional and many never speak. On the other hand my dad's family would totally take the piss out of each other in that way, but they would also help each other bury all the bodies if necessary - there is a kind of total acceptance despite the piss taking. They have your back.

I was at a pro-EU march and a friend said, to another Irish friend who was there, 'here comes the paddy wagons' when some police arrived. Irish friend was 'paddy wagon? Really?'. Friend was mortified as he'd just never made the connection.

Late teens to early 20s.

Locations a bit too outing.

It's one uncle (60s) in particular who kicks it off I think.

As I say he seems to go out of his way to say stupid stuff. He's a 'wind-up merchant' and very successfully winds me up.

In the past when I spent more time with him he loved to refer to 'P**i' shops, for example, as if daring me to challenge him.

I find I'm between a rock (ignoring) and a hard-place (calling him out which provides him some odd satisfaction).

First post and already this tired example of getting used.

Believe me I know plenty of mixed race people who have grown up with “racist banter” from their white family.

I posted in another thread recently about cutting off a (white) friend who let her brother call her (black) mixed race kids a racial slur.

OP is not BU but let’s not pretend it wouldn’t have happened if they were Black or Asian mixed.

And yes many people of colour unfortunately do stay and have kids with those who have racist family.

I wasn't saying it wouldn't have happened. You misunderstood my post.

I'm saying it's the same thing.

And there are some people who understand that it is wrong to use racial slurs about people of colour but think it's fine to use racial slurs about white people.

If the OP and her children were mixed race and her white husband was minimising his family making racist comments as "banter" people would be telling her to LTB.

Not Irish but completely agree with your post. I grew up in Scotland and the ones who were anti-Irish were also more likely to express anti-Asian and anti-Black views.

There’s a reason it’s not just catholics who hated the orange walk in Glasgow. Asians and other minorities did too.

I haven’t RTFT and I don’t know about LTB but most people do seem to support Op and feels she not BU. You will always get a mixture of views in terms of if they should LTB.

Definitely I’ve witnessed people minimising anti-Black/ Islamophobic etc type of racist relatives on MN many many times so it’s not that cut and dry is my point.

Yes, I have seen that too.

But it's not really about what people on Mumsnet think, it's about what her partner does.

The OP says she's already made the comparison to being mixed race.

I think I would say something like this:

"If my dad was Pakistani and your family called our mixed race son a "Paki", what would you do?"

Allow him to answer the question and keep probing until he has hopefully explained that he would tell them in no uncertain terms to stop being racist, and that if they didn't stop he would be cutting ties with them.

Then once he'd given a satisfactory answer, say, "Great. Well this is the same thing, so do that please."

If he didn't give a satisfactory answer or said it was not the same thing, well, that would be a DP problem calling into question their whole relationship.