Jolly Racist Banter

[Dogdidmyhomework]

Sorry I've gone on a bit...

One of my dps was Irish the other English. I was born and brought up in the UK. I live in the UK. My partner is English.

Twice now my ds (late teens) has told me that one of his uncles and a cousin has indulged in some 'hilarious' piss-taking about his Irish roots.

Last night he said that at a recent family get together another uncle and his dad (my partner) were joining in.

The sort of thing I'm talking about ranges from repeating such wittisisms as 'pig under my arm' and 'shillelagh' in a cod Irish accent to references to killing British policemen.

My partner's family like to say lots of 'close to the bone' contraversial things on all sorts of topics when they get together and laugh uproariously. It's their way of bonding and being together (thankfully infrequent). It's usually tedious but I just tend to ignore.

I've previously made it clear to my partner that I don't find the Irish stuff funny.

My dc doesn't find it funny but also doesn't seem bothered by it he says he doesn't feel anything about it.

Last night I felt very angry and upset because my partner didn't seem to understand why I felt disrespected and sad for my ds.

Worst of all my partner basically told me it was all in good fun and I should get over myself.

After a discussion/argument that followed a well worn path he did eventually apologise for unintentionally hurting my feelings.

I suffered a bit of name calling in the seventies at junior school because of my Irish parent, so I'm undoubtedly triggered.

I do recognise my partner and his family love my ds and wouldn't want to hurt him; I don't think they'd want to upset me. This kind of 'jolly banter' is just 'their way' (they'd say).

My partner can be pretty hopeless when it comes to emotions.
He does show love and care in other ways though.

This morning I'm less angry but I still feel hurt. I wish in a way I'd said nothing because we were all having a nice evening and now there's that awkward post argument phase to get through.

This post no doubt raises all sorts of questions but the general one is -
my partner feels I'm being unreasonable not to take it all as a jolly banter, am I?

Why are you splitting hairs on this? It is prejudice and discrimination, no matter how you try to present otherwise. It doesn't matter what term is placed on the bigotry.

I think that's a very good point thank - you and would probably be my partner's explanation if he could articulate it.

However, I do wonder if my son is more bothered than he let's on because he mentioned two different occasions.

Although perhaps there's nothing in that and he didn't realise how reporting back would make me feel.

Which is picked on as I was as a child.

Basically send in a team of psychologists!

I'm not 'splitting hairs'.

This is white on white racism though, so not sure why you’re bringing black people into it?

Or why OP is bringing Pakistanis in to it?

It’s like clockwork, any time anyone mentions racism against Irish people, people drag in black and Asian people into it.

Yeah definitely this - I’m Welsh and remember being on a night out a few years ago and a partner of one of the people I knew kept making Welsh jokes - really not funny especially after the 20th one and I ended up making excuses and leaving early.
It can be upsetting and people expect you to laugh along whereas if I had been black or Asian people would have said the jokes were unacceptable

Well we have already had somebody argue this can't be racism. Each form of bigotry should be dealt with on its own merits. It's probably because white people are used to being told they can't be victims of racism, which is wrong. Then again, I get the feeling I'm getting involved in a debate that will derail the main thrust of the thread. So I will leave it there.

It's racism.

Everything else is superfluous.

It's just not being acknowledged for what it is because everyone involved is white.

I would not tolerate a partner being so ignorant and disrespectful of my ethnicity.

The definition of racism in UK law includes ethnicity and nationality as well as skin colour. The English language doesn't have a word that neatly describes the experience of discrimination based on ethnicity rather than skin colour. Xenophobia refers to a hatred of foreigners in general and the prejudice faced by Irish Catholics in the UK within recent history is much more specific and targeted than that.

You'd be unreasonable TO take it as jolly banter, or as innocuous. It isn't. Even if it didn't bother you personally, this kind of troglodyte behaviour is not acceptable, unless perhaps your partner and his family are time travelers. And even if it doesn't particularly bother your son, he shouldn't have to listen to or normalise it. But since you've made it clear that it DOES bother you, your partner's additionally being horrible on a personal level to keep on doing it. Yeah, he's a nice guy and wouldn't hurt a fly (provided it was an English fly), but a delicious sandwich slathered with a thin layer of shite is still inedible.

You can reasonably tell all of them that this kind of talk is not allowed in the house, full stop, along with any other expressions of culturally specific bigotry. They can go elsewhere and yuk it up if they really can't control themselves.

I'm descended from gypsies, the comments about gypsies you regularly see do not bother me in the least. But then there is no money in it for white people to be offended ...

What do you mean 'there is no money in it for white people to be offended'?

I’m Irish and lived in England for years, and still work with a large number of UK citizens. I still get the stereotypes thrown at me, particularly drunkenness (“you look tired, was it a late night in the pub?”), potato references (from my boss!), etc and it’s very annoying. I wouldn’t put it on the same level as what my black and Asian friends have had to endure, but it is persistent and unwelcome teasing and a legacy of more pronounced hatred towards Irish people. In nineteenth century political cartoons they drew us to look like apes.

So I’m with you on this one. The banter is ignorant and it derives from darker motives and a desire to show Irish people as being incapable of managing their own country (hence stupid and drunken). And even when it’s diluted down to jokes about getting pissed and liking potatoes, we still hear the sinister notes. I’m old enough to remember reading that Princess Margaret called us pigs. (1980s).

Thanks for starting the conversation- I appreciate it.

No, it isn't. I'm not even using the 'can't be racist against White people' argument (although if I'm honest, I don't think you can) It is xenophobia, and unacceptable, but dragging in actual racism just makes it seem as if people want to score points and insist that they can be victims of racism (not talking about the OP here, but others on the thread)

I'm Irish, living in England, married to an English man, children born in England. My English PILs lived in Ireland for a while (which is what led to me meeting DH, so I'm thankful for that!). I've known them for 20+ years and in that time they have made quite a few racist/xenophobic (?) remarks. I despise them, for this and other reasons.

Some of my English friends have made 'close to the bone' remarks over the years and it never bothered me. The difference is in the tone and the intention. Friends make the remarks knowing they are cheeky and in a genuine attempt at humour - it's a bonding thing. I am welcome to rib them back in the same way. PILs make the remarks because they are small-minded idiots who can't cope with people being different, so they have to put others down to make themselves feel better. They don't care how I feel and I certainly can't respond in kind - if I made a similar remark back I would be the worst in the world and probably ostracised forever (maybe should I try it??)

These situations always depend on the power dynamics, relationships and intentions. I can take the piss out of being Irish because I am Irish. Close friends can (within limits) making seemingly dodgy remarks, though there is a line. But PILs who are openly racist dickheads? No.

What has often struck me when living in the UK is how extremely little English people seem to know about Ireland, despite it being a near neighbour that was once actually part of the country. I can't help but feeling there's something deliberate about that - avoiding looking certain details in the eye.

Regardless, when Britain got in a sulk and walked off from the EU, they left everything all their goodies behind for Ireland, so I'm grateful for that as well as for my lovely DH!

Definitely grey rock him. As you’ve noticed he’s trying to get a rise out of you. This sort of behaviour likely has as much of a root in self-shame as overly people-pleasing and you’ll not change him. We used to give my MIL a score out of 10 in the car on the way home instead of trying to find a way to get her to stop bitching. Worked a treat. We had a great laugh on the way home agreeing a score. Then one time we got home and realised we hadn’t remembered to score her… hadn’t needed to. After that she’s slowly stopped most of it, as she’s not getting any “return for her investment” I suspect!

I think you need to come back and tell us where the race characteristic, excludes protection for white people in the EA 2010. That argument is as ignorant as racism itself. Stop minimising.

Well I was responding to a post made earlier that asked about that.

My point was that that I wanted my partner to understand that derogatory comments made about Irish people on the basis of their nationality are as unacceptable as derogatory comments made on the basis of someone being from Pakistan.

I wanted to make that point because, I suspect that for some reason anti-Irish comments are not seen as real racism/Xenophobia.

Rather they are seen as some kind of big joke whereas derogatory comments based on colour are generally recognised as unacceptable.

Not a very sophisticated point I accept, I was dishing up the dinner at the time, and all based on limited personal experience, limited anecdotal evidence from others and gut feeling but that's why I brought Pakistanis into it. It was a comparison I guess.

I'm interested though, what is your issue with, bringing black and Asian people into it?

I'm not talking about the EA, I'm talking about day to day conversations. This isn''t happening at work.

Im Irish and I just moved to England. Most peoplr have been nice to me so far i have to say. This time

However one of my colleagues said something to me that i thought was a bit weird.

The first time i met her (a woman in her thirties) she said "theres catholic churches around here that you can join!"

Im not any religion. I wasmt christened into any religion.My family wasnt religious in any way. And neither am I.

I thought it was a bit weird that she assumed i was catholic because i was irish. I dont think id assume anyone' religion

Op my dad is english and my mum is irish

Ive seen it on both sides.

Ive heard such horrible things said about English people in Ireland. Ive heard two irish people say that all English people should be killed.

Then my irish mum told me that she received terrible abuse in England in the 1980s. It was so bad, she had to leave England

There is bad feeling between the two countries because of history. But the nastiness on both sides is hurting a lot of people

Forgiving and letting go of hate would benefit the two countries so much.

Shamefully, despite my dad being Irish, numerous holidays and relatives in Ireland it's only been in the last few years that I've really started to study the history of the UK and Ireland and begun to understand the past real hatred of the Irish and how they were despised.

I started reading because I wanted to be able to explain the peril Brexit was putting the Good Friday Agreement in and why it matters so much.

I tackled my son's history teacher (much to his consternation) on why more is not taught about Irish/UK history. The syllabi can't fit in everything I 'spose but I think there's a real gap when it comes to Ireland.

Yes indeed there's bigotry but, mostly good feelings I think, going both ways.

Oh please. So now you're moving the goal posts. So outside of work, racism doesn't apply. What you are doing is insinuating that Xenophobia is less than racism.

I'm just confused why you are still in a relationship at this point. He's racist, pushes boundaries to see how much lack of respect you'll tolerate and doesn't seem to care for your opinion, instead expecting you to compromise when he doesn't need to. I know people are quick to say ltb, but how do you sleep with someone knowing they disrespect you like this.

There is still a lot of anti-Irish stuff around - I only found this out since I've had a Northern Irish partner. As OP says, it's often in the form of "jolly racist banter". He discovered he was referred to as "the terrorist" behind his back at work, and he gets all the stupid irish people jokes, drunk stereotypes, people imitating irish accents.

I wouldn't have known about it if it wasn't for his experience.