Was I wrong to refuse sale at work urgent advice needed

[LemonBlueberryX]

So this morning at work (I work in retail - but not a supermarket, think along the lines of b&m), someone came in and tried to buy an item. I was working on the till. When they came to the till I felt frozen on what to do as I didn’t feel comfortable selling this item in these circumstances (based on a stereotype of what this person looked like). I asked for ID (it’s a look25 item) hoping they wouldn’t have it so I could refuse sale but they did. After that I felt I had to make a choice and so I refused sale. Because of things that have happened in my area recently I felt that by allowing this sale I would be personally contributing to bad things.

They kicked off and asked for the manager who came over and asked me why I refused the sale and I just froze and couldn’t answer. Manager took over the till and served the person. The rest of my shift went on as normal but Managers just whatsapped me an hour ago asking me to come in at 10 tomorrow for a chat. I don’t work saturdays so not usually in. What do I say?

I dont really want this getting back to my manager so have tried to be vague about said item

OP, you have been given plenty of good advice. Screen shoot what you need and then ask Mumsnet to take this thread down as it's a bit outing. (If people post a comment or query it will come at top of active discussions again).

Good luck with today's meeting.

Any hint of trouble and call ACAS helpline for advice straight away.

www.acas.org.uk/raising-and-dealing-with-problems-at-work

So if he's off to uni and wants to get a load of kitchen gear together, no chance of him getting a knife at B and M then?

You sound like you totally over-reacted OP. Say that and hope for the best.

Presumably the manager wants to know why you were uncomfortable selling the knife. Explain you were concerned about an 18 year old buying a single knife and wanted a manager to make the call

I think you did the right thing @LemonBlueberryX it is a concern that he kicked off and your manager sold a heightened youth a knife. It's part of a picture: the weed, the age, possibly an air if dishevillment, the area, etc.

Potentially a safeguarding or orevent issue.

I hope your manager will be telling yiu she noted the name and reported to the police and in future that's what you shoukd do rather than risk personal harm by refusing

Good luck x

Op you remind me of a woman I used to work with at the vets. She was public facing, I was 'out the back'.

One day she came into me to ask me to deal with a bloke who had come in worried about his cat but she 'didn't like the look of him' and would I deal with him.

It was not my job but hers so she started laying it on thick as to why she wasn't prepared to deal with him so I went out as he came in for a second time with his cat in a basket.

This man had been one of my uni professors and he was loved by all the students. He had lost his house at the beginning of the Northern Rock take backs and was struggling financially but he wasn't any of the other things my co-worker said he was, dirty, smelly, wasn't going to pay the vet bill, etc.

He remembered me, I pulled the grass seed out from under his cat's eyelid and sold him some meds. He paid and went on his way.

My co-worker had this whole invented scenario in her head about this man when intellectually, she wasn't fit to tie his shoelaces.

I knew she was a total wanker but this incident really changed my view of her.

OP you didn’t over react and if only more retail staff challenged young males buying single knives. If the worst inconvenience to done wanting to chop an onion is a delay in their purchase then I think they will manage. In a society where in the school I work at we can’t let some children through the door until they have been scanned for blades and where an ex student died recently after being stabbed by a kitchen knife then I would love to see more restrictions on sales. Protected items should be sold responsibly for the sake of all of us. You would be appreciated by the campaigners and victims of knife crime. Well done OP - I think you were bang on.

Personally I think your instincts were correct but the truth is he’d just go and buy it at the next shop. We need better legislation about this.

OP I think you should start looking for a different job. It sounds like you would suit a working environment where you can use your experience and passion and get the chance to think more independently.

Single knives wouldn't be available to buy i.e. individually packaged, if nobody ever bought single knives.

Nobody walks to the till with a single knife, and nothing else.

Only read the first couple of pages, but this thread shows how some people are desperate to think of themselves as non-discriminatory, that they will allow other people to be put in danger, so that they can smugly pat themselves on the back for how they never stereotype anyone.

It’s pretty obvious why that young man wanted a knife. It’s pretty obvious someone may get hurt, perhaps killed, if he has one.

Yes they do. Why not? You buy a single car and you are just as likely to injure someone with a car. Why would you buy a set of five knives if you just want one knife.

It's not for the OP to judge people. What if he bought a baseball bat but no ball because he already has a ball at home ?

OP, just do your job. Judging people on their appearance is too much if you are working in retail. He probably broke his mums knife using it inappropriately and wanted to replace if before she got home from the pitbull and weed growing factory.

Some stereotypes exisit for a reason. An 18 year old buying one knife.. really... please cut op some slack and yes it could be innocent but what does an 18 year old want with one knife is a reasonable concern..

An 18 year old buying a singular kitchen knife would also ring alarm bells to me, I think you did the right thing but agree with this poster:

OP I think you should start looking for a different job. It sounds like you would suit a working environment where you can use your experience and passion and get the chance to think more independently.

Most shops don't care and most managers are wet blankets that will do whatever to avoid having to deal with an annoyed customer so this wont change.

There is a legal responsibility op

Selling knives safely

Before selling a knife or bladed item, staff must take steps to ensure that it is appropriate to sell the item. It is against the law to sell to anyone who is under 18, but businesses should also never sell if they have concerns about how the buyer may use the item.
Remember – the law is on your side.

Businesses do not have to sell goods to anyone if they don’t want to.That is from essex police website.Its some years since I worked in retail but I do recall the cashier can get.fined personally if selling alcohol in certain situations.

A quick google told me this.
Retail workers also have the right to refuse tasks or requests that they believe are unsafe, unethical, or outside the scope of their job duties.

I agree with the poster who said to message boss back stating you don't work Fridays and please ffw you an agenda. The only thing I can imagine this meeting to be sensibly about is if you forgot to enter the refusal of sale into the log book. However as boss sold the items there is an argument that this is not relevant.

I often find that on mn few people know the law around this and due to that use their own "moral" view . In reality the sale of dangerous goods act is quite clear on these matters.

My bosses could be utter. Xxx about stuff but one thing they never argued with us about was refusal of sale as their view was better safe than sorry. Ultimately the shop and the cashier can be fined many do not realise it can be a personal fine for the cashier.

Edited to re-add paragraphs

Then that’s what you tell your manager, and put the ball in their court.

There will be a lot of moralising here, but I sympathise with you, OP; I think in the circumstances I may have done something similar. What does an 18 year old need a kitchen knife for?

Well, there are legitimate reasons - he may have been a trainee chef, for example, but if he did come across as slightly jumpy, aggressive, or wanting to get out of there in a hurry, I think you’re well within your rights to question the sale. The fact that your manager then took over and put it through is down to them. How will you both feel in a months time if said youth is all over the local news for stabbing someone?

Have an honest and open conversation with your manager, and take it from there. Good luck. x

Definitely add this in to your meeting!

In my area I’d be suspicious if an 18 year old came in to buy a single knife as well. We’ve got training on this and we also have to watch out for people buying certain chemicals that can be used to make explosives.

It’s hard because you have a split second to make that decision but if you explain your experiences with knives to your manager they should understand. You need to ask your manager for proper training/guidelines on their knife policy because they should have one. Also if you are in the union take a rep in, don’t be fooled by any “informal chat”.

I wish my staff were like you, I’ve lost count of the number of challenge 25 we’ve failed despite them all being trained. The excuse is always they don’t want to upset the customer but unfortunately sometimes you have to.

It actually IS her job to judge people .

She can become liable for personal fines if she sells alchohol or knives to someone who is visibly intoxicated.

She has to judge if they are under 25

She has to judge if they are purchasing alchohol for someone under age.

Like it or not but a cashier role is to judge people.

Just say you could smell weed on him and panicked as you didn’t think selling a knife to someone on drugs was appropriate.

You are absolutely right, a young male buying a single knife if that's all he bought, is definitely suspect.
If he bought a set of knnifes along with other kitchen and household stuff that would be different.
I would say we'll done to you for standing your ground.

I don't see why not if that's all they needed. I make no comment about the young man concerned but if an article of house hold equipment gets broken you replace that and not the whole kitchen.

It's not in this circumstance though. She knew his age. He was not buying alcohol.

Can you imagine having someone like this on your jury? Immediately discriminated against based on appearance alone.

The manager completed the sale because he/she knew the law was not on the side of the OP.

No-one backing the OP here is fresh from a campaign about selling individual knives.

It's not for the OP to decide who looks a 'bit dodgy' and who doesn't because where will that end? That is the point of the law.

Follow the law and if you don't like the law, campaign to have it changed but in a case like this, you shouldn't stop an adult person buying a legal item just because someone on the staff doesn't like the look of you.

I didn't think knives could be sold to under 21s?

My son left home at 18 and was refused kitchen knives when he tried to buy them in IKEA (along with other household stuff). I had to go and buy them for him.

I wouldn’t call the police to take advice in this instance. Having worked in retail I would say there would be a high chance it would be that which made you lose your job.

Tell your manager that in addition to selling of weed, he was aggressive with you (not with with him) and you froze because you were intimidated.

Tell him you had read in the news that police in some parts of the country were saying retailers had a responsibility to refuse sale of knives if they felt there was a high chance of knife crime. Tell him you lived in an area once where it was rife so you’re not going off stereotypes but lived experience. Ask if your shop has a policy, and what you should do next time. Say “I had visions of him being on the news being captured on CCTV going straight from our store to a crime scene”. That should concentrate his mind.

Hold on a minute, all the "gut instinct" flag waving goes against so many posts on here - someone comes on with a feeling that their DH is playing away, or "feeling funny" about someone and get roundly told to get a grip or give their head a wobble. Health concerns - you probably have health anxiety.

Of course knife crime - any crime - is a concern, and legitimate concerns based on evidence should be reported.

But living in a world where we routinely police people and their actions based on their looks tips us into paranoia and will erode any hope of doing what really needs to be done to tackle problems such as knife crime.

We often see posts on here defending young disenfranchised men, but if we view them all with suspicion you'll play into their sense of being aggrieved and potentially add to their alienation.

Being constantly viewed as a threat or a danger is really unpleasant.

And targeting people in this way can get really out of hand - remember the college professor that was under suspicion of the murder of his tenant? He was innocent but it didn't stop him being arrested and smeared all over the papers based on his perceived eccentricity and not much else.

If the lad in this situation had been heard talking on his phone saying he was going to shank his dealer - fine. If he'd been muttering threats under his breath - fine. But being dressed "casually" and smelling of weed isn't enough in my opinion. And like some others, I very much doubt trotting into a shop with CCTV and age policies and legit ID is the modus operandi of someone intent on a crime.

People invested in knives for collections have their own sources, and generic kitchen knives are available in most homes.

My point is, we already live in divisive and judgemental times, and this kind of thing doesn't help anyone's mental health or community.

I do feel for the OP, but this sort of thing is a really sad indictment of the times we live in all round.

I have adult sons and I still worry about them if they're out in town of a night, but I don't want to ban the sale of knives when there are policies in place already to limit harm and age limits etc. It will all just very out of hand and restrictive.