Mayflower primary school - nappy changing facilities for school aged children

[2011j]

AIBU to think this shouldn't be necessary?

Not including those with sen, children should be potty trained before starting school - AIBU?

I read an article a good while ago that one of the reasons children are being toilet trained later is that children are unable to tell when they are wet because of disposable nappies. When terries were used children could feel that they were wet and uncomfortable and so this helped with potty training. Don't know if it is true but it is an interesting theory.

My 7 yr old potty trained just over 2 and was a reusable nappy baby. I thought that might be why. His sister who is almost 4 was in disposables from a year old as when I went back to work I was too exhausted to keep up with the laundry. She also potty trained just past 2. I think it's just child dependent

I know literal children of heroin addicts and alcoholics who knew to go to the toilet at school age. No matter how lazy/incompetent a parent is no normal developing school age kid is going to want to poo themselves in front of their classmates. In fact I'd say 99% of kids still in nappies at school have special needs.

You know someone lazy who swears and think that's the reason the kid is still in nappies, come on I know alcoholics who drag their kids round pubs every moment and the kids still know to go on the toilet.

And I say all this as someone who's kids were potty trained at 2 so not looking to make "excuses"

Well unless you come and visit me and see it for yourself you won’t know what I see, will you? I’m only saying what I’ve seen.

I do.understand to.some extent I also live in a very deprived areas on a council estate ,there will always be some feckless parents who.just don't care but I think they are mostly in the minority most of the parents I see do toilet train their kids despite not being ideal.

A few posters here have said they are not seeing the same things in European nurseries, the social norm is to toilet train younger, and they are seeing the usual number who have serious issues that prevent it. Other children, including those with SEN, are trained when they get there.

I suppose there could be more who are being diverted, but it doesn't seem evident.

Fair enough but I'm just saying those kids are probably special ed because no neurotypical school age child is going to be happily pooing in front of their classmates. No matter how lazy and sweary your friends are I doubt their worse parents then the literal heroin addicts and alcoholics I know who still managed to potty train their school age children. It's really not difficult to potty train a neurotypical 4 year old.

Majority of children in nappies at school will be special ed.

I wonder if SEN is funded better in those countries? Early intervention, shorter waiting lists, earlier diagnosis, earlier support etc.

I don't think that's how people look at it. they are hoping the nursery or school will do the hard work part before it comes to changing a 9 year old.

I don't know but I have read on here that France is not great with kids with disabilities but that might just be anecdotal
It would interesting to me as a parent with a disabled child to see what kind of provision I could expect in a similar European country

I wonder what happens to kids like mine in other countries? I am trying to potty training my three year old who has a speech delay (just one words only at the moment) and possibly on the spectrum. He sits on the potty but nothing yet. I have a feeling he won't be ready and potty trained before school nursery. You can only keep trying. Should he be denied school nursery because he won't be likely be ready? I know in Spain they have to be dry at two so he would miss out. Some kids just take a while. My daughter wasn't poo trained until six.

I suspect those kids miss out until they are potty trained.

Well luckily Here he won't be clearly there is something going on with your son and you will be seeing as a parent who is engaging and doing their utmost
There may Well be some kids whose parents just don't care but i. expect they would be in the minority

Has anyone actually had a conversation with any of these supposedly NT children to ask why they prefer to wear nappies than use the toilet?

I was able to hold a simple conversation with my ASD daughter when she was two about the benefits of being dry (being grown up, getting to wear grown up pants, being more comfortable, being cleaner) and she managed to train quite quickly.

Genuinely curious to hear the children’s’ perspective.

Maybe the problem is that no one has actually had the conversation with them so the nappy wearing remains their norm?

What I’m getting at is has anyone actually said to an older child in a school setting “would you like to try doing it in the toilet instead of the nappy? It would be much quicker for you and you’ll feel much cleaner and more grown up” or similar?

Or does that run contrary to
guidelines about child-led training?

I’ve had the same conversation with DD about night time and she had been able to tell me that at night she just doesn’t feel it happening at all and doesn’t wake up when it does, which is fair enough and why we continue with night pants.

Communication may be part of the issue here?

It's not just that it's other kids reactions too
My oldest son was reliably toilet trained at just after three we had been trying for months before hand and he got the weeing,in the potty white quickly but as soon as he was dressed he would wet, himself ,it finally clicked at three and there were no more accidents
But he was very close to his cousin who was 14 months older then him so always reached milestones before him
And I remember his cousin asking why he as still wearing nappies as only babies wear nappies
It was no big deal.as he we toilet trained before he started nursery,but my point is kids will notice other kids wearing nappies and point It out so why would the child in nappies ( who apparently has no disabilities) prefer nappies ,they wouldnt.

My NT four year old wouldn’t be able to answer that.

@TwoFeralKids@x2boys
I was one of the posters who spoke about how some other European countries don’t have a toilet training difficulties.
I also said that I believed it was a social issue rather than a rise in Sen diagnosis and the lack of specialist school places.
I ‘ll try and expand.
While I DO NOT feel that here ( in Italy) disability and SEN have better provisions on the whole, there are very big problems here too, I do feel that the differences in the set up for the age range 0-6 is key to this particular issue , ie toilet training.

Firstly all children are assigned a paediatrician from birth till 14 years of age. Children will be seen at regular intervals for 30/45 minute appointments where a whole range of checks will be carried out, as well as generally whenever they need to be seen for illness or advice etc.

Here parents are given detailed instructions and support about feeding, and subsequently exactly how to ween, with a programme of when exactly to introduce each new food type to best avoid allergies is given. Italian parents will be given a literal list of the order to introduce fruit and vegetables etc

Depending on the child’s birthday Paediatricians will instruct parents to remove nappies, in the summer before they turn 3.

The idea that parents wait till children show an interest isn’t really considered. They are told to take off nappies and advice on how to do this and that’s what they do.

At the milestone check ups 12/18/24/36 months all children are monitored and children who show differences outside of the normal range of development, will have been already seen by specialists during this time.
A child with a speech delay would be seeing a speech therapist within a relatively short time.

Italy has state run preschool provision for 3-6 year olds. When I say that children start at 3 or just under out of nappies I think I should make a clarification. The children don’t wear nappies, but their training, as in using the toilet, is part and parcel of the educational process for this age range .

WE DON’T EXPECT 2/3 YEAR OLDS TO BE SELF SUFFICIENT IN TERMS OF TOILETING.
We expect them to come in and be used to not using nappies, but not to remember by themselves to go to the toilet.

Children use almost classroom sized wet rooms with 8/10 miniature ceramic toilets, sinks and a shower.
They go to the toilet as a class, all together, first girls then boys. They learn how to undress, use the toilet, wipe, wash hand and redress. This happens basically every 2 hours for the first year.
It’s a fundamental part of preschool.
Children who have accidents or children with SEN who use nappies are changed and washed by state employed female caregivers who do this as part of their role and again are considered a fundamental part of this stage of education. Class teachers don’t really deal with nappy changes because they are responsible for supervising the rest of the class.

One difference is that the children don’t get a choice , and parents are used to and go along with this type of approach. They sit on the toilet at 9:00/ 11:00/ 13:00 and 15:00 whether they want to or not.
They can decide to not use the toilet if they don’t want to, but they still have to sit down.
This acceptance of not giving young children choice over certain things, and accepting that they go along with how things are done is fine by parents and you don’t generally find parents who want exceptions made.
For example all children eat a portion of fruit mid morning. There is usually the odd child who doesn’t want to eat what’s offered, and obviously they aren’t forced to eat anything, but they sit with the others and no alternative is offered or allowed. Same with lunch, which is a year long menu designed by specialists.

For the first 2 years, so from 3-5 roughly, if the school has adequate space, all children will sleep in little separate beds in a dormitory. They sleep for 1 -1 1/2 hours. Again there aren’t any exceptions made. Parents who don’t want their children to sleep, or at least lie down in the dark take them home, they can’t stay awake and play.

Italy doesn’t have separate education for those with disabilities, and this has drawbacks in my opinion for a proportion of children with disabilities so it’s not a case of being better.

However as a country they feel that it is beneficial to society to provide access to a paediatrician and have a state run free full time education of 3-6 year olds before their more academically focused education begins at 6.

I love this. Wish I'd live in Italy. 😍

I am a Nursery nurse of 30 years. It takes an effort from parents to potty train and unfortunately some don't want to put that effort in. They rock up with children in pants for the very first time at 9am on a nursery day and expect us to perform miracles. On non nursery days, they are back in nappies. I also think in the past, it was expected that NT children be trained by 3 years old, and most were, but now there is not that same expectation.

MIL saw this thread and said.

”It’s very simple. Back in the day (by which she means the 1980s) you just waited for the summer after they turned two then took the nappies off and kept a potty nearby. Plenty of puddles but they soon worked it out for themselves.”

Not quite how I did it with DD (but then she knows not to offer unsolicited parenting advice!)

I suspect that part of the difference may be that in many places people are starting much earlier, like 18 to 24 months. Despite what the common advice is now in the UK, I think in many cases it is more successful to train these younger kids, even ones with speech delay, SEN, etc.

Not always, but I think waiting until 3 or 3.5 is a major reason for issues people are having.

The afternoon nap is interesting both my kids gave up their afternoon nap at around 2 -2,1/2
I was nurse and I would have loved them to have kept their nap for longer
as I used to nap when they did but they decided for themselves they didn't need one.

I work in a school and there has been a massive shift over the last decade in terms of parental responsibility and expectations of schools and early years settings.

We have seen an increase in parents who start a half-hearted attempt at potty training the summer before their DC start school, but quickly give up because it's hard and expect school staff to toilet train them. Most don't even bother to send their non-toilet trained DC in with spare pants because they assume we'll provide them (which we do of course but not the point), and I'm not talking about parents who can't afford spare pairs of pants.

It's not just toileting either, we have so many DC starting school now who can't put their own coats or shoes on and don't know how to wash their own hands, and not because they're not capable but because no one at home has taken the time to show them and help them practice. The last couple of years we have resorted to delivering lessons (actual lessons with a PowerPoint and everything) on how to eat with cutlery because we have so many NT children who still think it's ok to eat a roast dinner with their hands when they're in Year 2.

We've also seen a big increase in parents trying to refuse to collect sick chicken ("Well, can't a TA or one of the office ladies just look after him, it'll be home-time in a couple of hours anyway?") and parents trying to drop their kid off ridiculously early or pick them up late, because they have meetings and assume staff will just be happy look after their child until it's convenient for them.

In the past many autistic children were licked in institutions and treated brutakly. Now the norm is for children to live with their fami!he's and be regarded as human beings.

Hope that helps