To think voting for assisted dying legalisation could be a huge mistake???

[MyLimeGuide]

In Scotland they are voting to legalise assisted dying. Looking likely to pass. I am worried this will come to England now. Kier is already proving he doesn't care about old and disabled people so this scares me.
Obviously there are 2 sides but how can people be so ignorant? If passed this could be one of the biggest opportunity for corrupt evil behaviour of saving money on the NHS, care, people literally getting away murder, playing god! No not good. It's so scary.

Potentially 4,500 to seek assisted dying within ten years,
You happy for 1,100 or so to be essentially murdered so that a few thousand who are dying anyway can pick their death day with a promise of less suffering?

If it’s not enough deaths for you to notice, do you feel the same about the avg 1,100 women murdered every year by their partner?

If not, why not? How cheap is life to you exactly? And whose lives are worth so little that the comfort of 3 others is more important than 1 person’s right to live?

I'm sorry I don't understand. If you've been following what I've written on the thread why did you ask me to explain myself again?

Nor have I only spoken about palliative care. I've spoken about the need for good palliative care, the dangers of coercion and the dangers of the slippery slope.

I've already explained that it's likely abusers will use the bill as has been proven by men who have 'euthanised' their wives.

Other countries indicate that the bill criteria will be widened.

Same here. All this nonsense about "other countries" when many are just quietly getting on with it.

I'm perfectly aware that some people suffer when they die but thank you for the clarification.

Again you appear to not understand the article you posted.

438 cases were reported for possible non compliance of practitioners. Failure to complete the medical records required by law and inadequate safeguarding wrt dementia patients.

It seems to have been a particular problem in the state of Ontario. Where 1/4 of MAID practices were contacted. It did not happen to 1/4 of MAID users in Ontario or anywhere else.

Over 60,000 people have availed of MAID in Canada.

The article isn't about coercion or murder.

I live in one of these countries, and it's news to me! You seem to be very well mis informed.

Did you miss the part where some people had Alzheimer’s and dementia
Or where others were accepted for euthanasia when the practitioner had no experience or understanding in their illness yet went ahead anyway.

The issues are a disgrace.

Lets not forget when they are dead it’s too late to reassess. They can hardly come back and complain and clearly family members are either unaware or don’t care.

Its not good enough that even one mistake ….sorry….murder happens
On average over 80 a year questionable cases of euthanasia is 80 a year too many and that’s only in Ontario
Do you really think this is just a problem there….what are the chances of all these ‘mistakes’ only happening in one state

Agree
As it has done in other countries.

just like the DNR in this country

How can there be stats for coercion. All the people have been euthanised.

There can only ever be a possibility given the medical evidence of peoples condition at the time of the decision along with practitioners
noncompliance
and lack of notes
and no evidence of eligibility
and lost notes
land on and on it goes

Trying to prove coercion though in these circumstances is almost impossible.
That doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
What we do know is that some people did not have the capacity to make the decision and that is the key issue here

That’s a disgrace
How can another person be allowed to make the decision on your behalf
Now that really does sound like people will be just killed off for convenience.

Then perhaps we need to focus on the care of all those suffering.
Put time and money and research into alleviating peoples suffering.

If a single person is coerced into being euthanised.
If a single mistake in decision making is make which results in a persons early death.
If a single person decides on behalf of another they should die
those deaths are nothing more than murder and murder is illegal and immoral

I don't know about all the provinces in Canada, but my 80-year-old sister is getting wonderful care in a rehab. hospital in Ontario

Assisted dying is being abused in Canada with doctors coercing patients into ending their lives, members of the group who helped to legalise it have admitted.

Members of the British Columbia Civil liberties Association (BCCLA), the group that spearheaded efforts to legalise assisted dying, have raised fears the practice is being “abused”.

In one instance, they spoke of a patient who had been approved for assisted dying on the grounds of suffering from hearing loss.

On the same call, it was claimed some medical colleges in Canada had been advising against referring to MAiD on patients’ long-form death certificates, in a move which could distort the true numbers of people using it.

“One of the most worrying aspects of the Canadian experiment is it shows that once you start legalising, there is a risk that a significant number of physicians normalise this practice,” said Trudo Lemmens, a professor of law at the university of Toronto who has testified before Canadian parliamentary committees on the introduction of assisted dying.

A grandmother suffering with breast cancer was offered assisted dying by the very doctors who were about to give her a life-saving mastectomy. The 51-year-old, from Nova Scotia, said she was made to feel as though she would be better off dead.

The Telegraph also spoke to another patient, Roger Foley, 49, who lodged a legal complaint after being offered assisted suicide four times.

The Ontario man, who struggles with lifelong disabilities owing to a disease called cerebellar ataxia, leaving him bed-ridden, said: “To hear litigation and policy members of this group all of a sudden admit they were wrong and flawed in their approach, I just think of all the victims and casualties and wrongful deaths that have happened that they caused."

Disproportionate numbers of people who ended their lives through assisted dying when they were not terminally ill – 29 per cent – came from Ontario’s poorest areas.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/news/2024/10/26/assisted-dying-abused-canada-admits-group-legalised/

https://archive.ph/SAVcj

Prof Theo Boer, one of the early architects of Dutch euthanasia practice, has since become its most outspoken critic.

“It is well known that British advocates of assisted dying argue for a more restricted law than is found in the Low Countries. Here is my prediction: any law that allows assisted dying will come to be experienced as an injustice and will be challenged in the courts,” he wrote. “Why exclude psychiatric patients, many of whom are suffering most heartbreakingly of all?”

The Netherlands has taken this argument to its logical conclusion. While the law there hasn’t changed in the 20-plus years since it was introduced, over time the interpretation of its criteria has, to include people with mental illness who are suffering unbearably – even those aged under 18.

“I think everyone in psychiatry accepts euthanasia based on inhumane suffering, but it is still a last option,” says Damiaan Denys, professor of psychiatry at the University of Amsterdam and former chairman of the Dutch Psychiatry Association. “There is a worry it is getting too fast, too loose.”

Others argue the law does not go far enough – one Dutch campaign group, Coöperatie Laatste Wil, or Last Wish Cooperative, founded in 2013, is pushing for “last will drugs” or suicide kits to be widely available for people who choose to end their lives rather than continue to suffer.

Denys published a research paper on the EE in July last year and drew some troubling conclusions. “The waiting list is two years. And interestingly … when we analysed the data, we noticed that that waiting list resulted in a lot of people changing their mind,” he says. “But it is possible in some cases, if the patient finds a psychiatrist, and a second one, that it can be done in six weeks – it can go very, very fast. It depends … on how skilled you are at convincing people you want to die.”

In total, 65 per cent of those who had a euthanasia request granted were women. While most euthanasia deaths for physical illness are carried out for those aged 60 and above, 60 per cent of this cohort were under 60; 18 per cent were younger than 40. One patient was under 20.

Menno Oosterhoff, 68, a retired child and adolescent psychiatrist, has been providing second opinions for patients who request euthanasia since 2016. He has been carrying out the procedure himself since last year, and has since euthanised nine patients, one as young as 16.

Oosterhoff admits to having doubts. “Sometimes I think, did we open Pandora’s box? How many people will ask for euthanasia? I have no idea."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/08/dutch-euthanasia-healthy-children/

archive.ph/7Bdv2

Can't read some of the articles behind paywalls, but from life experience it's a bloody tough call. My mother whose a retired nurse, who has spent a lifetime of caring, and knows the legislation herself. Has a stockpile of tablets that she cannot physically access herself. She has medication that can help 'ease her pain'. That we as a family (non medically trained, medication that's above her home carers remit to administer as part of her care plan. But we as just Joe public apparently can dose).

Some days my mum says she wants to die, and wants us to assist via handing her the tablets... Obviously on the one hand we don't want to do that. But on the other if she could physically pop the pills from her own blister packs she could do that herself... Basically I feel the law is fucked. If I hand her the popped pills to take own life I'm screwed. If I'm I ignore her plea to take her own life I'm a total cunt (there's not a guarantee she'd die).

Realistically who the fuck am I to say when anyone's life should end? Including my mother who can't do it herself. But we've had several conversations that I'd prefer to not be physically impliant in her death

Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canadian deaths.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0j1z14p57po

I've just seen how late it is! I have even more bookmarks - will come back to this tomorrow, if I can face it 😳

Also adding, my mother is 86, she has terminal kidney failure, she has declined dialysis, and just wants to spend time left with family. I would be horrified that she was pushed for dialysis which she's declined.

Sorry to hear about your mum, Poppy.

You're right, it would be terrible to push someone to have an invasive treatment they didn't want. It would also be terrible to push them to be killed, which reports are saying happens in all the countries where it is legalised. Many of the critics are actually the people who helped to bring the laws into force. They're saying parameters are widened or reinterpreted, procedures get bypassed, death certificates 'abbreviated' ... all the things you'd expect to happen with laws granting the power of death.

The archive links are to free copies of the paywalled articles.

Do you honestly think the NHS are just going to be going round the wards injecting the old, frail, dying and terminally ill with medication to kill them? There would be uproar from all staff. legislation will need to be put in place which will be heavily scrutinised so it’s not something you can just go round doing. Also if you look at other countries where it is legal, what you’ve suggested will happen hasn’t happened. I work for the NHS and we already have a system where someone who is terminally ill or dying can choose not to continue with treatment which would otherwise cause a very slow and painful death. It’s a legal document that states the persons wishes or has been granted by a family member if they do not have capacity. So this is pretty much the same. I watched many people die from various illnesses during my student days and made the decision that if I ever got one of these life destroying conditions because that’s what they are I would kill myself. And I still stand by that. Places like Dignitas are an option for people who want to die with dignity and without having possible legal repercussions. Many people are in so much pain that they beg their spouse or child to help them because they cannot do it themselves or have not got the money to do it legally. Then have to die worrying if those that helped them are going to go to prison. Surely a person should have the right to die on their terms? This is probably the only thing they can control at this point and they should be able to die with dignity.

If people with depression are going to top themselves they are going to do it irregardless it being legal or not.

But you don't understand... She's asked that we as a family can help. Which basically means I give her an overdose of medication we literally have to hand. But if we give too much she'd die...

I'm not sure what part of family care you missed me.

why? When they are depressed and completely sad? I would much rather a loved one had a decent ending than feeling like they had to take it into their own hands and do it in a horrible uncontrolled and secretive way, causing a wave of devastation behind them.

No it’s not absolutely fixable. There are some pains that medicine cannot fix some absolute horrendous deaths that we cannot help with. I know someone that bled to death through every orifice of their body, tolerated and whitenesses by their 16 year old daughter. That is not humane. They never should have had to bear it. She should never had had to see it. And no money or investment in palliative care will fix that. And there’s loads of deaths that end in horrendous ways, many that end in extreme pain why should we let our loved ones suffer sitting there waiting for the inevitable…

The current system is at times cruel, barbaric and morally indefensible. I have no doubt that in the future, we will look back at the time before assisted suicide was legalised with disbelief.

Exactly, then it's merging onto genecide...