To think voting for assisted dying legalisation could be a huge mistake???

[MyLimeGuide]

In Scotland they are voting to legalise assisted dying. Looking likely to pass. I am worried this will come to England now. Kier is already proving he doesn't care about old and disabled people so this scares me.
Obviously there are 2 sides but how can people be so ignorant? If passed this could be one of the biggest opportunity for corrupt evil behaviour of saving money on the NHS, care, people literally getting away murder, playing god! No not good. It's so scary.

I think that method is pretty much guaranteed. Many are not. People bungle overdoses all the time desperately trying to end their suffering. No one likes to talk about it so the reality is not faced. That being - they often go wrong and the lovely NHS won't be helping those poor folk. I've witnessed it plenty a time.

I'm eager for it to become available due to significant and life changing illnesses that progress.

I'm aware there will be inclination not to help more complex people with access to treatment and support if they can offer this. And that's a problem.

Yet, they're doing this anyway every day to people
So at least let people bloody escape without the hell of a balls up attempt and the aftermath of that on family and friends.

You said I was making assumptions AGAIN, what's the again part? I've only ever talked about myself, not you.

And as I keep saying if you think certain methods of suicide are selfish as it results in people needing to clean up the mess or find a dead body then all the more reason for controlled medical ways to do it.

And it's not always a short term problem is my whole point. It can be life long. Like for me.

So you support assisted dying for people with only mental illnesses?

Read back your posts. You said a few times that I don't know what I'm talking about which is an assumption.

As I keep saying, there are more than two ways available to kill yourself.

It's an illness and there are ways of alleviating that illness. I don't believe that someone mentally ill has full capacity. However I'm sure the Swiss clinics are making lots of cash from other's misery.

Many many people get better after suffering depression. There may be exceptions but you should have full capacity if you're asking someone to assist you.

I myself have significant physical illness. I absolutely support that.

The mental illness side of things - yes, I do. With multiple caveats however.

Some people really will be suffering immeasurably and just want escape from that torment. And not everything can be fixed.

Well I've researched many options and that one seemed like the least worst of them! I cant describe it on here as it may get removed as some sort of promotion!

What are the caveats you think should be involved? (Sorry if this seems like a bit of an inquisition, I'm honestly interested in how people see this working).

But obviously not the least worst for other people.

How many times do I need to say this (hence saying you dont understand) - I am talking about myself, I am well aware there are more than two options 🙄

Of course some people get better, but some dont, like myself, hence talking about why I'm in favour of these clinics in Switzerland. It's all about choice for each individual person.

A problem for me is the number of healthy people who support this based on "I saw my relative suffer and die in pain and I can't get it out of my mind". People are advocating for someone else to be put to sleep, because that's what it is, so THEY don't have to look at it and remember. Very few really care more about whether the suffering person themselves wants to die. Many just want to unburden themselves of witnessing it. I don't expect anyone will own up to that.

Politician's support for it is more about removing burdens to their budget balancing and beggar all to do with having mercy for suffering.

It absolutely WILL be abused by bean-counters and other bad actors. Life for disabled or the long term sick will become even more dangerous with more suffering than they already do have to deal with.

Exactly. So again another reason to support the clinical option.

It will be abused to some extent, I am not naive to that.

I could come back and ask your credentials when it comes to understanding and witnessing suffering on a scale that is inconceivable and not manageable? Or that is not managed in ways it should be?
What is your understanding of this?

The caveats - I would like to see that certain checks have been tried with evidence. Yet, if you have the understanding I allude to above, you know that many poor souls will never access appropriate support that could inform this checklist. E.g therapy, real therapy, not the NHS offering. Access to professionals who can ADEQUATELY support and guide with medication trials. These are the sort of checks. Yet, our provision is so sub standard, people won't get this.

And I don't believe that refusing or going against assisted dying therefore equals investment in these provisions as above. So, people are suffering immeasurably and I want for them to have escape.

There will be people in the wings who might want an inheritance. Many appalling coercive family member are already draining the finances of vulnerable people. No law here hasn't stopped that.

I am all for this in every way.

The point I'm making is that it's not all about you. Depression can be alleviated, suicidal ideation can stop and people who have a mental illness can't freely make that choice because they're ill.

No one is stopping you from doing what you want to do to yourself. However, AS for people often going through something transitory, shouldn't be permitted.

I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand what you mean. I'm not trying to be obtuse, but it's really not clear what you are describing- what credentials do you think I should have?

And one of my concerns is that what you call "abuse" means people dying needlessly, and probably some dying against their wishes. It's a pretty significant concern tbh.

I posted my thoughts, you started replying. I'm talking about myself, my views, my opinions. Some are against it some are not.

You talk about depression as though its something that stops people being logical or thoughtful or rational. Yes that applies when someone hits rock bottom and jumps off a bridge one day with no warning (or whatever method they choose!!) and those deaths will never be prevented - with or without assisted clinics.

I completely disagree with you. I don't actually believe that feeling suicidal is a mental illness for all people. It is taboo, it horrifies people, there are religious associations with the ' sin' so it's put in the box called ' arghhh mental illness '.

I feel suicidal quite often but I'm not mentally ill in any way. I am incredibly physically unwell and hopeless from my suffering. I'd like reprieve soon as pain cannot be alleviated any more.

Depression really could be severe enough and unmanageable for a number of reasons that can't be fixed. This could be an entirely natural human response to significant life suffering going back years. I believe some of these people really will have tried everything and just want out.

I believe there are people who with the right medication for example might have alternative thinking and won't suffer ' everyone hates me, I'm better off dead mentality '.

Why is this so taboo? Let people escape. There's no hell or other nonsense religious conditioning waiting them.

Everything has the potential to be abused. People are being hideously abused all the time in hospital, in care homes, in the non existent mental health provision.
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We live in EU where assisted dying is legal. FIL made a choice after suffering for years to commit euthanasia. Checks were fantastic, whole process took a long time with multiple doctors, psychiatrists. In the end it was HIS choice and honestly incredibly dignified. I feel sorry people back home in the UK don't have the same choice

The UK proposed law is for it only to be available to people with terminal illnesses and a prognosis of less than six months. So tbh a process that takes a long time is realistically not going to work. And then there's the problem of needing multiple doctors and psychiatrists involved- the NHS isn't exactly awash with spare staff.

Excellent. I am so relieved for him and his family. 🙏.

Those against this need a dose of real suffering and I mean real suffering of nightmares - where you are screaming for release and it doesn't come. My body has done that to me plenty of times. Bowels tore open, sepsis, neuropathy everywhere ripping through my face now. That's only 10% of it. People dying of cancer vomiting their own shit out for days.

This stuff happens, it is happening and you want to believe we'll all be hugged and relieved through medicine on the journey through this. It's not reality behind the shadows for many.

You lot have a trial of this level of suffering for 1 week then get back to me.

Yes the proposed UK option is very limited. What they have over there is completely different. You never know one day we might have the same options 🤞 - fingers crossed is to represent my wishes of course.

You initially responded to my post. I didn't respond to you.

Mental illness means you're ill and not in your right mind. If you weren't ill you wouldn't have a mental illness.

@Pleaseshutthefuckup And I completely disagree with you. If suicidal ideation wasn't due to mental illness, how come when people take medication or have therapy, the ideation stops? How come people recover?

Mentally healthy people don't feel suicidal. Suicide is not illegal in this country, therefore no one is stopping anyone from taking their life.

Saying that systems can be abused therefore open the floodgates is irresponsible and harmful.

From an X thread by Dan Hitchens:

10 moments that revealed the truth about the Leadbeater Bill:

Nov 12: Christine Jardine, a co-sponsor of the bill, flounders in response to basic questions.
(Prof Jane Monckton-Smith, leading coercive control expert, says the bill could turn out to be “the worst thing...we have ever done to domestic abuse victims”)

Nov 23: Kim Leadbeater suggests that feeling like a burden could be a “legitimate reason” to receive lethal drugs, then tries to backtrack.
(The bill is clear: if your sole motive is feeling like a burden, you qualify.)

Jan 29: The academic Dr Miro Griffiths tells the committee it’s “nonsense” to pretend the bill exempts disabled people.
For instance, someone could come within the “terminal illness” definition by disengaging from medical assistance.
(An amendment to prevent this was rejected.)

Feb 12: Kim Leadbeater admits, after several evasive answers, that under the bill someone can receive lethal drugs if their sole reason is to save their relatives money.

Feb 26: MPs propose that each assisted suicide applicant should get a meeting with a palliative care specialist.
Care minister Stephen Kinnock raises a “concern” that it “would increase demand for palliative care specialists”, then joins Leadbeater in voting down the proposal.

March 11: In a forensic speech, Labour’s Sean Woodcock points out just how little the “expert panel” is required to do.
No obligation to ask questions, no obligation to speak to relatives, it can all be done over the phone, etc.

March 19: Kim Leadbeater rejects multiple amendments to protect hospices by allowing them an opt-out from facilitating assisted suicide.
Her close ally Kit Malthouse suggests they should be defunded if they refuse to participate.

March 21: AS drugs may sometimes cause “respiratory distress and suffocation”, says a @BMJ_SPCare article.
Patient “would be unable to move a muscle to show any signs of distress, and may even look peaceful.”
(Leadbeater rejected drug safety amendments)

March 25: Naz Shah, a former NHS commissioner, points out there’s a good chance that the big four outsourcing firms will help deliver assisted suicide.
Kim Leadbeater: “I don’t know very much about those companies… Do they deliver healthcare?”

I think that some people, not all, but some, are so desperate for assisted suicide to be made legal that they are willing to overlook how terrible this bill is.

There is a difference between being depressed and having for example dementia or a mental disability that would impair your ability to make decisions or affect your mental age for example. Its wrong to lump it in with other examples where a carer or guardian or attorney for example would make decisions on a person's behalf.