Page 5 | To think Starmer has shot himself in the foot.

TheQuickRobin · 2025-05-13T19:17:58+00:00

This isn’t about my own opinion but political strategy. So he does this Island of strangers thing wanting to appeal to Labour heartlands who have gone to Reform. But. I just think Reform voters won’t believe him? Tories hate him becaus he’s Labour. Middle class Labour lefties will be put off by the message. Who does he think he’s winning over? Anyone on here had their opinion of him changed? IABU - I thought he was a prat now I think he’s on my team IANBU - EITHER I thought he was a prat, still think he’s a prat OR I liked him now think he’s a prat. Very unscientific poll here!

SpryCat · 14/05/2025 07:52

There is a huge difference between people legally coming here to work as they have skills we need and illegal immigration, there are loopholes that need closing so those that come here legally to work so they can’t work here for say 5 years and then receive a pension/ benefits if they haven’t paid enough tax.
Illegal migrants need to vetted, finger printed and have to pay for their DNA to be on a database and checked that they haven’t committed a crime in another country. I don’t think illegals should get paid benefits, they have to pay privately for GP’s/ hospital/ dentists etc nor get their rent paid and can prove they are able to be self sufficient before being allowed to walk our streets. Any crimes committed in this country means deportation as tax payers money won’t be used housing them in our prisons and once they’ve passed all the first checks, they have another seven/ ten years without any benefits etc, being in work and that they understand our British Law and they have to abide by them even if the beliefs of their religion/ country of origin differ. That they want to become British and integrate in our society and that these rules still stand throughout their lives, these rules need to be abided by all those that have become British in the past 20 years too.

TheFastTraybake · 14/05/2025 07:52

Livelovebehappy · 14/05/2025 00:39

And its attitudes and quotes like this which will allow the country to walk into a Reform majority come the next election. During the recent local elections, people were sending out a clear message. Yet we still have people refusing to believe it can be a reality and ignoring the message.

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No it's not. Voters for far right parties need to take responsibility for their choices like anyone else and stop pretending that someone giving a fairly shrewd character assessment of Farage is forcing them to vote for a "party" that uses proven racist rhetoric. Not liking being called a racist doesn't give immunity against actually being racist or voting for a quasi fascist party.

MoominUnderWater · 14/05/2025 07:53

Shame the Lib Dems aren’t stepping up and being more vocal. Never hear anything about them. They’re wasting an opportunity.

SipandClean · 14/05/2025 07:55

HRTQueen · 13/05/2025 21:32

He is not trying to out Reform Reform

He is listening to vast majority of voters the number one issue isn’t the NHS, isn’t the housing crises, isn’t the war in Gaza or Ukraine, isn’t concerns with Trumps chaos,

Labour have finally acknowledged that it’s immigration (as it is in the most western countries) immigration time and time again is coming up as a concern the left can no longer bury their heads in the sand about

Starmer just doesn’t particularly have political appeal. Put someone who can spin it better (like Blair could or Andy Burnham can) and you will have voters return

thats not to say Reform will lose their appeal over night or the Tories won’t pull it together before the next election (though I think it’s more likely to be the one after)

He’s targeting the wrong people though. Making it difficult for genuine workers (like those who work in care homes) to stay and doing nothing about the people arriving illegally in boats. I can’t see many of those (mostly men) wiping back sides in care homes. Like it or not people will vote reform at the next election.

Coolasfeck · 14/05/2025 07:56

cantForget · 13/05/2025 22:05

He’s an idiot and he’s thrown it all away. This country was desperate for change and voted for Labour values and policies. Unfortunately it seems Labour is no longer the party we thought it was. No idea what’s going on with Starmer he seemed to swiftly take a Tory turn and now thinks that he can swerve into a bit of reactive Reform type behaviour? It’s definitely not the Labour we thought we knew.

Such a shame when he had so much support and the opportunity to really bring about positive change .

Yes this is it. We’re tired. We wanted to see positive change a vision and strategy for something optimistic. Not more angry LBC talk radio ranting fodder.

BeardofHagrid · 14/05/2025 07:59

Starmer is full of human warmth.

TheFastTraybake · 14/05/2025 08:00

Grimtastic · 14/05/2025 06:57

I’m not sure Left vs Right explains U.K. politics anymore. I live in a suburb and I know many university educated people / people in professional roles etc. I also appear to have one of those faces where people are happy to chat away to me!

From my (many) discussions most people said they voted for Reform a handful voted Green at the locals. All the Reform voters were initially sheepish. But when they know you won’t ostracise them they are very happy to discuss. Immigration, safety and reducing numbers is key. Most want mass deportations Rapes of women are a huge concern. Terrorism is another. They can see their kids being priced out of the housing market. They can see rising crime and have read European reports on crime and Nationality. And Nationality and economic contribution..Bombs in Sweden (30 plus in Jan). And they can see not all people who move here want to integrate. Some are here to commit rape and crime. Shoplifting is rife. Two tier policing and criminal justice. But also they are watching the same issues unfold in Europe and the predictable ‘Far Right’ label is now found to be comical. But the level of knowledge, stats, facts etc is impressive. They clearly did their research.

When your PM pops to a garden party while girls are fighting for their lives and he calls concerned people Far Right it was clear he was a wrong un. And people watched and listened and are disgusted by his actions.

So I don’t think it’s Left vs Right as many of these people are pro benefits for the disabled. Many ‘right wing’ are against elderly fuel allowance cuts. Most recognise farmers are asset rich and cash poor. But they recognise we cannot afford a welfare state that supports immigrants who don’t work. And while paying for Net Zero. And hotels for economic migrants and benefits for legal migrants who don’t work. And foreign aid. Some are silently boycotting takeaways and uber as they worry about the black economy and what that funds. Barbers shops springing up with council approval. Others are silently writing to MPs. Something has to give we cannot afford it all. I know this is anecdotal but I can see the change in the last 6-12 months and I speak to a vast amount of people.

I believe Starmer was prioritising supporting immigration and foreign aid and Net Zero over the disabled and elderly and our own food security. He’s being pushed to change his stance on immigration. I’m not sure he will succeed, it’s likely just to be another ‘smash the gangs’ headline. All talk and no action.

In my lovely leafy 4 bed detached middle class street I know all my neighbours. I can run alone each morning. But I’m not naive enough to know this is not the case for a large percentage of the population. People don’t feel safe, because crime is rising. I no longer choose to visit London or Birmingham, I avoid it. I’m sure some tourists feel the same. It’s not pleasant anymore so I spend my money elsewhere and save myself the stress of being mugged, harrassed etc. I can’t be the only one and I believe money from tourism will dry up unless the gov get a grip it.

We don’t even know if Iran or Russia are sending in terrorists? Yet we let undocumented illegal immigrants leave the hotels and wander around the local communities! Some seem to prefer to import men with no ID rather than risk being called a racist (my none British friends think we are bonkers). Thousands of young men arriving each week who presumably still expect/demand/want sex in a country where rapists are rarely jailed - can’t see an issue there…

I disagree with most of what you say but it's true that right/left isn't necessarily useful in post industrial Britain. A lot of those who voted Labour because they worked in heavy industry that no longer exists are actually pretty socially conservative (small c). Their views aren't progressive and don't align with former concepts of solidarity. The media is a lot more polarised too. Older people who get information from newspapers have a choice between largely right wing press and those who get information from social media are offered algorithms that give them ever more of what they already believe without challenge.

No political party has caught up with the new landscape, including Reform whose tactics are redolent of national socialism.

TheFastTraybake · 14/05/2025 08:03

EasternStandard · 14/05/2025 07:11

So true.

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Such bollocks.

EasternStandard · 14/05/2025 08:07

TheFastTraybake · 14/05/2025 08:03

Such bollocks.

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Why? Do you think borrowing costs have gone down?

TheFastTraybake · 14/05/2025 08:08

SpryCat · 14/05/2025 07:52

There is a huge difference between people legally coming here to work as they have skills we need and illegal immigration, there are loopholes that need closing so those that come here legally to work so they can’t work here for say 5 years and then receive a pension/ benefits if they haven’t paid enough tax.
Illegal migrants need to vetted, finger printed and have to pay for their DNA to be on a database and checked that they haven’t committed a crime in another country. I don’t think illegals should get paid benefits, they have to pay privately for GP’s/ hospital/ dentists etc nor get their rent paid and can prove they are able to be self sufficient before being allowed to walk our streets. Any crimes committed in this country means deportation as tax payers money won’t be used housing them in our prisons and once they’ve passed all the first checks, they have another seven/ ten years without any benefits etc, being in work and that they understand our British Law and they have to abide by them even if the beliefs of their religion/ country of origin differ. That they want to become British and integrate in our society and that these rules still stand throughout their lives, these rules need to be abided by all those that have become British in the past 20 years too.

Please don't use the offensive term "illegals". No human being is illegal.

SpryCat · 14/05/2025 08:09

Stop paying Foreign Aid, our NHS, emergency services Universities etc need money pouring in and tax the wealthy more instead of hiking up business NI payment and making it so hard to get student visas.

TheFastTraybake · 14/05/2025 08:09

EasternStandard · 14/05/2025 08:07

Why? Do you think borrowing costs have gone down?

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Clearly not. 🤣

I think the whole ill informed, low information rant is such bollocks that the idea of responding to it point by point makes me lose the will to live.

TheFastTraybake · 14/05/2025 08:10

SpryCat · 14/05/2025 08:09

Stop paying Foreign Aid, our NHS, emergency services Universities etc need money pouring in and tax the wealthy more instead of hiking up business NI payment and making it so hard to get student visas.

Do you understand the purpose of foreign aid and the consequences of even a small cut?

EasternStandard · 14/05/2025 08:10

TheFastTraybake · 14/05/2025 08:09

Clearly not. 🤣

I think the whole ill informed, low information rant is such bollocks that the idea of responding to it point by point makes me lose the will to live.

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I feel similarly reading your response tbf

You’re not making a case for much.

TheFastTraybake · 14/05/2025 08:13

SipandClean · 14/05/2025 07:55

He’s targeting the wrong people though. Making it difficult for genuine workers (like those who work in care homes) to stay and doing nothing about the people arriving illegally in boats. I can’t see many of those (mostly men) wiping back sides in care homes. Like it or not people will vote reform at the next election.

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Care work is - despite what Mr Starmer or Ms Badenoch would have you believe - skilled work and about much more than "wiping backsides". Saying that denigrates those who work in care and those who receive it.

Stirabout · 14/05/2025 08:13

TheFastTraybake · 14/05/2025 07:47

How can any MP possibly vote next month without that information? But they're expected to, and to vote with the government.

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I’m assuming MPs will get the relevant information first though.
No one else has seen it. It’s not published yet for anyone to number crunch the stats to put out anything factually based in the public domain

TheFastTraybake · 14/05/2025 08:13

EasternStandard · 14/05/2025 08:10

I feel similarly reading your response tbf

You’re not making a case for much.

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Ok thanks for letting me know 🤣

SpryCat · 14/05/2025 08:15

TheFastTraybake · 14/05/2025 08:08

Please don't use the offensive term "illegals". No human being is illegal.

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Sorry, I meant people coming to the U.K illegally, I can’t edit my post and change it now.

EasternStandard · 14/05/2025 08:15

TheFastTraybake · 14/05/2025 08:13

Ok thanks for letting me know 🤣

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Ditto

lol

Genevieva · 14/05/2025 08:18

No. Firstly, a lot of Reform voters are Old Labour and would love to be welcomed back into the fold. Old loyalties die hard. Secondly, immigration is genuinely a severe problem. It’s creating massive infrastructure and taxation problems that the government can’t manage. This is not a left/right issue. Denmark has an anti-immigration left wing government. All Sweden’s parties are left of centre by U.K. standards, with a high tax, high welfare, big state set up. They are currently repatriating large numbers of people and have negative inward migration figures. You can’t have a leftwing welfare state and porous borders for very long because it’s not economically viable. Labour have to choose.

Stirabout · 14/05/2025 08:18

TheFastTraybake · 14/05/2025 07:45

Well that's the government's line anyway....

Conveniently forgetting that PIP is not an out of work benefit and in fact keeps many people in work. Pretending that people can shake off their disability like raindrops and become "normal".

If Starmer wanted to get people off disability benefits and/or into work he'd think about putting universal credit up to a level that people can actually live on. That way people would have the energy and strength to look for work, a better chance of maintaining health and not feel so desperately poor that they need to find extra money to meet their needs via disability benefits.

I know this is an unpopular idea but it would be effective. The majority of people want to do some kind of meaningful activity but too many are hamstring by poverty and its accompanying ill health.

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According to Labour.( and we don’t know otherwise yet as the specifics haven’t been announced ) those people who will be affected will be those who can work and don’t have a 4 rating based on the new criteria.
They won’t be those who are severely disabled and unable to work.

EasternStandard · 14/05/2025 08:21

Genevieva · 14/05/2025 08:18

No. Firstly, a lot of Reform voters are Old Labour and would love to be welcomed back into the fold. Old loyalties die hard. Secondly, immigration is genuinely a severe problem. It’s creating massive infrastructure and taxation problems that the government can’t manage. This is not a left/right issue. Denmark has an anti-immigration left wing government. All Sweden’s parties are left of centre by U.K. standards, with a high tax, high welfare, big state set up. They are currently repatriating large numbers of people and have negative inward migration figures. You can’t have a leftwing welfare state and porous borders for very long because it’s not economically viable. Labour have to choose.

Except he spent the first ten months demonising and attacking those Reform voters with dog whistle far right stuff and you’re likely underestimating how much he is loathed by them.

Genevieva · 14/05/2025 08:27

EasternStandard · 14/05/2025 08:21

Except he spent the first ten months demonising and attacking those Reform voters with dog whistle far right stuff and you’re likely underestimating how much he is loathed by them.

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Oh I think he is widely despised. It’s not loyalty to him. At the moment a week is a long time in politics, so who knows what will happen between now and the next election. A lot depends on his ability to deliver something substantial. Do I think he will? No! But you never know. If he got a real handle on immigration do that people can see and feel that burden lifting, if he makes people feel richer through an improved economy with more job opportunities, and if he improved the perilous state of the NHS then his electoral fortunes will change. But to do that he needs to put the British people first. He was stupid enough to admit on camera that he prefers the unelected networking forum of Davos to our ancient parliament in Westminster, which doesn’t bode well.

TheFastTraybake · 14/05/2025 08:29

Stirabout · 14/05/2025 08:13

I’m assuming MPs will get the relevant information first though.
No one else has seen it. It’s not published yet for anyone to number crunch the stats to put out anything factually based in the public domain

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My previous comment was misleading. There's some idea of how many people will be pushed into poverty by the proposed cuts (although many disability organisations think that the numbers are underestimated). Currently the government predicts that 250k extra people will be in poverty, organisations like Disability Rights UK and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation estimate closer to 400k including 50k children. However when you take into account the reduction in the Access to Work scheme and the government's stated intention to further cut benefits, it's a true unknown as to who will be affected and how. The average loss of household income for disabled people is estimated to be around 4.5k a year - this doesn't take into account households with multiple disability or the cost to other services when demand increases.

What MPs don't know, as it won't be available until autumn, is how many people will be helped into work as a result of the cuts. However it looks likely to be a small number. One survey found a total of ten jobs in the UK where applicants could work part time from home for an accredited Disability Confident employer which sounds about accurate to me.

I truly wish Mr Starmer could spend a few days at work with me, trying to get people into work (not DWP). It would be such an eye opener for him.

Coolasfeck · 14/05/2025 08:32

EasternStandard · 14/05/2025 08:21

Except he spent the first ten months demonising and attacking those Reform voters with dog whistle far right stuff and you’re likely underestimating how much he is loathed by them.

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Why is the chase always on to capture Reform voters? They make up less than 20% of the electorate at best. The winning strategy is to play to the centre and have policies which appeal a bit to the left and a bit to the right of this.

We have the 2 majority parties chasing a small demographic of voters. As soon as one of them realise they’ve forgotten 80% of the potential electorate which includes the middle class workers paying a large chunk of the tax, and start making bold policies that will capture even half of that number, Reform will implode and Farage will have to think up his next vehicle for self promotion. The other major party will be dead for at least a decade.

If the LibDems can get their shit together and get some press coverage they can really make a play that they are different and have policies which will propel us out of stagnation so people start actively feeling their lives are improving.

Labour are banking on their core voters having nowhere else to go, as did the Tory’s. As soon as there’s a sensible place to go, they will go. The sensible Labour and Conservatives should defect to LibDems or create a new party.