To have not known kids have to attain grade 4 in maths?

[Pepperpotladles]

I did not know this!
I have obviously been living under a rock.
So today someone told me that if kids get grades 1, 2 or 3 in their maths GCSE, it is compulsory that all these kids have to keep on studying GCSE maths until they achieve a grade 4 or above, and they have to keep trying to achieve this up until their 25th birthday.
Is this true?!?
I can't believe my ears.
What about kids who simply can't achieve grade 4 or above in maths, for any number of reasons?

Yes, this is certainly the case for my DC’s collage. They said that they have strict criteria as to whether children can sit functional skills and not GCSE. I am just happy that they managed to pass. It did set them back a year, as the college would not let them resit the GCSE while studying a level 3, so they ended up having to spend a year doing a level 2 that they didn’t want to do. It’s quite tough as it means them being a dependant for an extra year.

Doing GCSEs here. Pass rate is 75% for a foundation stage maths exam. Foundation is for children who struggle with maths. You cannot get higher than a 5. And you must get 75%+ to pass the exam. Next year if she wants to go to 6th form she needs a 4 or she will have 8 hours of study a week of maths on top of her A-Levels. She doesn’t want to go to college, she has a condition which makes organisation difficult and she has anxiety so staying at 6th form is preferable. I’m paying £35 an hour for a tutor once a week.

Make it make sense.

Numbers instead of letters is proven to be harder for population to compute. Why is our grading system so stupid?!!

Step forward Michael Gove.

You need about 55% to get a Grade 4.
You need about 70% to 75% to get a Grade 5

I'm not sure if the word "struggle" is the right word - the Higher Paper is aimed at people who do well in maths - and can do things like complex algebra, advanced trignonometry etc. People who struggle with maths will do the Foundation Paper but not all people who do the Foundation paper struggle with maths,

We had similar with DS2, though it was English that was the issue. Thankfully the tuition got him over the line to stay on for A Levels, as they wouldn't allow him to do them with a resit needed, and he had no interest in any BTECS there or at a college.

He's really able at maths and is predicted A* (FM and Maths), and should be going on to university in September. But he could easily have just dropped out of education completely, if he hadn't got the pass in English.

Thanks for the reply. My DD is also an art and photography genius! I can’t tell you how hard I’m praying for her to pass her maths GCSE so she can get onto the L3 Photography course at college she desperately wants to do.

It just seems so counterproductive to hold DD back on a L2 course and (countless) resits for the sake of a maths G4 GCSE. DD just wants to get on with studying what she loves. What’s wrong with that?

It just seems a bonkers system to me…anyone who doesn’t thrive in maths is penalised. If a pupil who couldn’t draw or use a camera was told that they couldn’t do maths A level until they could, everyone would think it was completely ludicrous. And yet pupils who excel in the creative field are told they’re useless all the way through school.

it’s funny (not funny!) how whenever an established artist, singer, actor, photographer or anyone in the creative field is interviewed, they always, without fail, say how awful school was and how they felt worthless and stupid. Why is creativity not praised in schools?

Sympathies, I also fear the 8 times table.

I had to insist my son retook English language. He got a 5 in lit and 3 in language. He resat in November and got a 3 again but fortunately passed with a 4 the following summer.

I wish I could have managed to get a resit for my DC but the college said that it wasn’t necessary and wouldn’t be funded as they had met the criteria. They now have a level 3 extended diploma in another subject but I do feel it doesn’t look great on their CV. It’s now listed on their CV as English GCSE instead of English Literature.

I agree.

Lots of people have good memories, can remember all kinds of things, but completely useless putting it to practical or any other use.

Lots of people can barely remember what they had for lunch, but are remarkable with applying knowledge, logic, etc.

A few people have both skills.

Just because someone doesn't have a good memory doesn't make them thick. I think that's a big part of the problem with schools today because so much is all about remembering things which is why I'm a strong advocate for change in schools to reduce the "memory" side of things, i.e. facts, equations, etc., and more emphasis on skills, i.e. logic, analysis etc. There really is no need for "some" equations in Maths and science to be put on the equations sheet for exams, but others aren't - that's just an unnecessary test of memory and another obstacle to success for pupils who don't have a good memory!

I have to clarify that I don't just remember formulas. I have a good understanding of the principles underlying mathematical formulas and can apply them when necessary.

I got D (twice) in GCSE maths.
I went along to an adult class about 8 years ago, I aced the screening test and I was doing really well, but life got hectic and I had to give up.

I tried again 2 years later and didn't get through the 1st stage.

Why do pupils need to remember that sin 60 is sqrt (3) / 2?

Or similar for sin 30, cos 30, sin 45?

That's just a test of memory. Yes, there are ways of working it out if you can't remember them but what is the mathematical purpose of having to learn the exact value?

I agree. Especially on the foundation paper.

I struggle to remember them as I don't use them in everyday life, so I draw a square/equilateral triangle in my head, and cut it in half to calculate. That's too complicated for DD.

That's not true.

Can you imagine trying to get a 25yo man into a classroom to study for GCSE maths?! Simply wouldn't be possible. I believe they need to keep trying until they're 18 (might be 19), but after that, it's "oh well."

That being said, a couple of months ago, I sat the foundation level GCSE maths paper, just to see what it's like. I'm a primary school teacher, and honestly, an average 11yo could get a 4 if they sat the exam now.

I'd kindly say that if a 25yo can't score the same as an average 11yo, they've probably got more problems than GCSE maths.

There's nothing 'kind' there, whatsoever, love.

What country do you teach in? Of course a 25 year old with an EHCP wouldn't be taught in a school. There's all kinds of bespoke packages, particularly post-16.

I agree. I've mentioned above about the typical/average 11+ papers being of comparable standard to lower grades at GCSE. So, I agree with your opinion of a grade 4 being the standard of a good 10 year old. Very worrying indeed that people six years older still aren't up to that pretty basic standard. Something is going very badly wrong with our education system if people having had 10/11 years of state education can't achieve the level of a good 10 year old (subject of course to genuine learning disabilities). I think it's a combination of trying to teach the wrong things, even the foundation paper is still academically based rather than real-life based. Whereas the 11+ is a lot more "real life" based without the complex algebra, trig, etc that most people simply won't need in real life.

I don't beleive an average 11 year old would be able to fet a grade four as there will topics thst haven't been covered, and if it was that simple,why are a third of 16 year olds failing it ?
Even so
primary aged kids are doing maths every single day a 25 year old isn't
When I tried to help my then primary aged child with his maths homework there were things I had forgotten becsuse it's decades since I had a maths class and I'm a fully functioning adult thanks.

"That being said, a couple of months ago, I sat the foundation level GCSE maths paper, just to see what it's like. I'm a primary school teacher, and honestly, an average 11yo could get a 4 if they sat the exam now"

Do you think that's true?

I mean the word "average" is doing a lot here. On the KS2 SATs paper, 73% of pupils met or exceeding expectations. A raw score of 54 / 110 means you've met expectations.

Do you think those pupils who met expectations on the KS2 SATs paper would also be able to get a 4 or above if they took the Foundation paper at the same time?

I agree that there is a lot of cross over between the Foundation paper and a KS2 SATs paper. Very similar concepts are covered in say the first 15 questions - and get those right and you've done enough to get 50%, so in the getting a Grade 4 region.

Of course - the key thing is - given someone got met expectations in the KS2 SATs paper, how likely are they to get a Grade 4 or above at GCSE maths?

And if they did not meet expectations in KS2, what are the chances of them getting a Grade 4 or above at GCSE?

And what can schools do to ensure that pupils who may not meet expectations have a good experience of maths at secondary school to provide them with the maths skills they need for life?

subject of course to genuine learning disabilities

Other SEN exists. Not all students who do not have a learning disability are able to achieve a grade 4. For example, some pupils who don’t achieve a grade 4 may not have a learning disability (which is a medical diagnosis) but they may have learning difficulties (general or specific).

"I don't beleive an average 11 year old would be able to fet a grade four as there will topics thst haven't been covered, and if it was that simple,why are a third of 16 year olds failing it ?"

But OTOH, there is a lot of cross over with topics that have been covered in primary and if you can answer those correctly, you can get a 4.

This is Foundation paper (AQA Paper 1)

https://cdn.sanity.io/files/p28bar15/green/cbcd375a0a3162872a541455d298ecce4e738606.pdf

This is a KS2 SATS paper

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/664dc7b6f34f9b5a56adcc33/STA248818e_2024_ks2_mathematics_Paper2_reasoning.pdf

I remember in Year 6 my DS was going C grade maths. (The primary school brought in maths teachers from the local secondary).

There is a definite numeracy (and literacy) issue in this country that needs to be addressed. Makes me wonder how much of the population has "SEN"/"LDs"?

And how many people go through life thinking they're crap at maths because of the way it was taught and the topics taught?

I feel though that being Indian I come from a culture that's ingrained with maths. My mother and father sat with me and even helped me with university maths. I've sat with my children as well.

I also like learning with them because it helps me reactivate my brain.