To have not known kids have to attain grade 4 in maths?

[Pepperpotladles]

I did not know this!
I have obviously been living under a rock.
So today someone told me that if kids get grades 1, 2 or 3 in their maths GCSE, it is compulsory that all these kids have to keep on studying GCSE maths until they achieve a grade 4 or above, and they have to keep trying to achieve this up until their 25th birthday.
Is this true?!?
I can't believe my ears.
What about kids who simply can't achieve grade 4 or above in maths, for any number of reasons?

I understand it's difficult. But I know someone (DS's uni friend) she even did A-level maths. I thought dyslexics can still learn to read with the right intervention and teaching methodology.

Bully for her 🙄

Well think of it this way.
You seem to be having a hard time understanding that people can really struggle with maths, even though it keeps being explained and should be obvious to you by now.
Maybe the people who struggle with maths have similar difficulties with doing maths?

And there is 'learning to read' and 'being able to comprehend more complex wording quickly enough in an exam to then do the numerical calculations without your head figuritively exploding'.

My DD can read. But the 1p and 2p values question blew her mind.

What was so difficult about the 1p and 2p questions?

@Ghsvdf She couldn't get her head round 'the value of the 1p coins is the same as the value of the 2p coins'. 1p and 2p are different values she said.

She literally couldn't understand it. The wording was too confusing for her.

@Ghsvdf I can’t speak for Teen’s DD, but for some DC it would be because of their literal use of language. 1p coins do not have the same value as 2p coins. If the question had said ‘the total value of all the 1p coins together is the same as the value as the total value of all the 2p coins together’ some would have more of a chance of understanding what the question was actually saying. Others may still not understand what the question was saying.

I messed up the C&Ping then editing. Hopefully you get the gist. Ignore the first ‘as the value’. It should say ‘the total value of all the 1p coins together is the same as the total value of all the 2p coins together’.

Whoopti ping. My best friend has ADHD and suspected Autism. She has a masters degree. Her wife has AuDHD and cPTSD and a PHD.
Another friend has dyslexia and is a paramedic, a course which is notoriously difficult to get onto.

Yet none of them think that means everyone can achieve what they have. My own sons mental health has been so awful that turning up and attempting his GCSEs was a massive achievement. His grades are irrelevant.

I'm not sure what the 1p and 2p question is about either.
@TeenToTwenties what was the full question?

It was an algebra sort question. The total value was 40p, and the value of the 1ps coins was the same as the value of the 2p coins. How many coins were there or something.
So the answer was 20 1p and 10 2p coins.
But DD just couldn't get her head around the bit about the value being the same, because in her head 1p and 2p coins are of different value.
It was her dyslexia coupled with lack of confidence.
It's an example of where language difficulties gets in the way of doing maths.

I had a lesson with my Y9s a while back where we were doing writing algebraic expressions and they couldn't do '2 fewer than' because they didn't know what fewer meant.
They also struggle to remember that halving and dividing by two are the same calculation. If you tell them to halve a number, they find that easier than you telling them to divide it by 2. Same if you say 'what is 18 divided by 3?' they struggle with it compared to 'how many 3s are there in 18?'. It's not the maths, it's how it is worded.

And yet they will have done halving, dividing etc regularly at primary school.

With the words.

So what's happening?

@cakeorwine 'doing at primary' isn't the same as ''understanding it properly' or 'remembering a week after doing'

If DD doesn't do things very regularly she forgets them. I had to remind her last week re faces, edges and vertices. So she is struggling with something, we focus on it, she is fine, then I come back after a couple of weeks and it may well have gone again.

And we can't keep doing everything all the time, there isn't the bandwidth alongside college course and her getting through daily life.

@TeenToTwenties thanks.
That is a confusing question in the way it was written.

If your child gets a 3 then have to keep retaking to try and get a 4. If they get a 1 or a 2 then they can do functional skills instead.

This kinda stuff makes me worried about the future of the UK workforce. If they can't interpret these basic mathematical sentences, what hope is there? It's not even a word problem, it's just a maths sentence.

I didn’t know this and my kids are now in year 12. I don’t live under a rock! x

Year 9s?
There’s nothing remotely tricky in that wording, even for a primary school child.

edit: Unless you talking about a remedial class?

You didn't know they needed a grade 4 and that maths and English need retaking until it is achieved or that this has to be done until 25?

I thought everyone knew that young people needed a 4. The retaking until 25 is, I think, a myth.

Requiring a grade 4 minimum is mentioned often enough in the media and by teachers. Pass grades at GCSE were grades A* - C when DD sat her GCSEs and everyone knew that a minimum C grade was required.

We don't use the words 'remedial class'.

Nor do we make faces about children.

These are great kids, who work hard and are polite and kind.

I always think that if it were required to get a grade 4 in art or PE to progress, I'd be screwed, even though I'm great at maths. And someone going 'it's just drawing a picture of what you can see in front of you, how hard is that?' would be rightfully told to fuck off.

But you talk about the language versus the maths.

What do you think is going on when pupils have spent many years being exposed to the language of maths, such as fewer, half, divided by, multiples etc but still struggle with this language at secondary school?

So that’s the standard across all your Year 9s? Hard to believe.
I asked a question, btw. No actual children were harmed in the process.

You're doing very well to keep your temper @noblegiraffe

I bet you are a fabulous and patient teacher.

But something's going on when despite many years of being exposed to the language of maths, pupils still struggle with it.

Are we just doing the same thing again and again, without little improvement in pupils understanding of maths?

You need to bear in mind that you are talking about real children. You might not know them, but other people do, and some people on here are their family members. Making faces about how they struggle to decode maths questions in Y9 because you, personally, find it easy is unacceptable.

Like I said, they are great kids.

Maybe we should pick something that you really struggle with, make that a basic standard for progression and then make faces when you don't make the grade?