To have not known kids have to attain grade 4 in maths?

[Pepperpotladles]

I did not know this!
I have obviously been living under a rock.
So today someone told me that if kids get grades 1, 2 or 3 in their maths GCSE, it is compulsory that all these kids have to keep on studying GCSE maths until they achieve a grade 4 or above, and they have to keep trying to achieve this up until their 25th birthday.
Is this true?!?
I can't believe my ears.
What about kids who simply can't achieve grade 4 or above in maths, for any number of reasons?

Oh and to answer your question @cakeorwine. I didn’t say the content of the overall syllabus is different in maths. That doesn’t mean there aren’t differences though. The calculator/non-calculator point in my pp is just one example. Teen mentions another with the style of the questions. A further example is the length of papers and number of papers is different for WJEC Eduqas to, say, AQA.

WJEC is the welsh board and despite still having GCSE we have letters still A*-G not the English system of numbers.

When DH and I sat our GCSE back in the day and niece few years ago in England schools sat with dfifferent exam boards for different subjects - the schools pick the exam boards for each subject.

In Wales unless private all it all the same exam board - WJEC.

English Lit and History - will have clear differences in syllabus- science and maths less so but there can be minor differnces in topics covered.

I was always bemused the local bookshops had exam guides for other boards and then wonder why they didn't sell.

Maths in Wales GCSE level we haven't bought books as there both the WJEC question bank full of past questions and topics and a website somone set up with https://www.mathsdiy.com/ with topic booklets and past papers and worked answers.

It's been very hard to find any text books for WJEC further maths A-level- as while there similarities with other boards there are huge differnces according to his maths and further maths teachers.

There is no one board that RG uni accept most of they are all assumed to be equivalent levels if with different sylabuses and areas covered - plus scottish education system is completely different and Uni are all use to taking many different qualifications as they take different countries students.

How important study guides are depends on teaching and school - they were vital for DS with really disrupted teaching and vitually no notes to revise from and with a few learning issues - they are not as vital for DD2 same school few years later as the teaching been more consistent and revsions guidance existing this year - though she still does past papers at home as well as school ie in addition to homework and exams styles questions in the revision guides.

Even with same board you can get different levels - foundation, intermediate and Higher in maths here and few other subjects- and they have slightly different content - so even with buying right board with revision guides you have to also make sure it is the right level same with any past papers.

Indeed, but how else can you demonstrate your intelligence in a way employers will take seriously?

Many big employers are now using ever more ingenious aptitude tests, assessment centres, etc. My son says that some of the questions he had to answer in online recruitment tests for his financial services job applications were far harder and challenging than in his Maths degree final exams! They didn't just "tick a box" and give him a job because he had a First in Maths - they used their own selection processes (over several stages) for him to prove he had the "intelligence" to suit their needs.

When it's well known and accepted that a Maths degree from one university is at a different level than a Maths degree from a different university, employers need to find new ways of weeding out potentially hundreds of applicants with what appears to be the same piece of paper!

Unfortunately that doesn't deal with the problem of people without that magic piece of paper not even getting a foot in the door to take those aptitude tests which they may well pass, despite not having spent 3 years at Uni, which is also perfectly possible.

Unfortunately that doesn't deal with the problem of people without that magic piece of paper not even getting a foot in the door to take those aptitude tests which they may well pass, despite not having spent 3 years at Uni, which is also perfectly possible
Well, yes.
My point exactly. Without the qualifications to start with you won’t get a lookin.

The thing is a lot of these jobs never used to need a degree in the first place. It's because Blair wanted 50% to go to Uni that so many have degrees now and lazy employers used it to weed out and reduce the number of applicants. Now the employers who genuinely need the "best" people are having to find new ways of weeding out people. Many would be better just to go back to A level based entry (or even GCSE level) and use other criteria to select the best by other means.

Well, they used to manage it. The trick was, you didn't walk in to a job at the top level.

Only the top 5% of the country would have had degrees in my mother's day. When I went to uni it was 19% of the country. Today, it's over 50%

It's much harder now to start at the bottom and work up. Gone are the days, it seems, of starting on the factory floor and ending up in middle/high management, like my stepdad who left school at 15 with no qualifications at all did.

There are fewer and fewer non-academic routes into many industries now. And I don't think that's a good thing.

I agree.
But the world has changed immeasurably, and we’re stuck with it.

We're really not "stuck with it". We can't afford to throw people on the scrap heap because they can't achieve a degree, just as we can't afford to put them on the scrap heap if they can't get a grade 4 in Maths GCSE. We need to be more flexible than that and look at what people can do, rather than what they can't. It's like the old saying of measuring a the ability of a fish by asking it to climb a tree!

We need to challenge this kind of unnecessary and damaging development. Luckily, there's a lot more realisation that we NEED people with manual skills such as tradesmen, mechanics etc., so that's a glimmer of hope for those who'd struggle to get a degree. We're also seeing more "modern apprenticeship" schemes in large accountancy firms and other "white collar" jobs, so there's another glimmer of hope (Smaller firms have always had open doors for more able school leavers wishing to train as accountants without the Uni route). More realisation of "good" well paid jobs that don't require degrees such as train/tube drivers. I think (and hope) the tide has turned and sanity is returning, but it took 2-3 decades to get where we are, so it won't be quick to turn back time and start opening doors and giving opportunities for those unable, incapable or unwilling not to go to Uni. Bring it on, asap please!

Well, I certainly hope things turn around too, but for the foreseeable - we have to work with the system as it is, not as we’d like it to be.

So piping in here about different exam boards. My child’s school switched exam boards at the last minute for maths. They did an extra mock exam after Xmas and compared results and asked the kids what they preferred. They changed to OCR from AQA I think. The main differences weren’t content but how the questions were worded. One exam board is heavier on wordier problems. There’s probably more to it than that.

DD2 didn't get on with the Cambridge foundation iGCSE syllabus and switched to Edexcel foundation iGCSE. Seems to have found it better and easier - but we'll see!

But the more parents who are a little more assertive and communicative and like to strive for change get involved with putting their kids/young people forward for vocational routes the better things get. I've got one on a more traditional A Level and university route (though her subject is pretty vocational in itself) and one who will likely go to FE college and do a vocational subject so I sort of fall into this category myself.

Also I work for a trade association in an area of manufacturing/engineering/construction and see that good apprentices/young employees can go far and quickly.

My son's school used the Welsh Board (WJEC?) for Eng Lit and Eng Lang for similar reasons. They did explain it, but I can't really remember the detail. Just remember it seemed strange that an English school nowhere near Wales would use the Welsh board. But I do remember that it was definitely that they felt the exam question style better reflected their pupil make-up.

They also used a mix of AQA and Edexcel for other subjects, e.g. AQA for Physics and Chemistry GCSE but Edexcel for Biology GCSE, but then Edexcel for A Level Physics, likewise a "mix and match" for humanities and languages.

I thought at the time it would have made more sense to stay with just one exam board for most mainstream subjects and stick with it for A level if the pupil's had used it for GCSE, but obviously they had their reasons. Though I did suspect it was just personal preference of the Heads of Dept?

That's what I'm trying to say. It's up to parents and children to drive the demand for change by actually "choosing" alternative options like modern apprenticeships to show employers (and government agencies, colleges, etc) that there IS a demand and start to insist that they increase the supply!

Parents also need to get over themselves as regards "image" and stop the obsession with wanting bragging rights that their little "jimmy" is going to Uni, when in reality, little Jimmy would be more suited to qualifying to be a gas engineer or electrician, but they can't have that because he may get his hands dirty and have to wear overalls! Can't have the neighbours twitching curtains seeing him come home in a Ford Transit can they - they'd rather he get into £50k debt and end up with a NMW job in Tesco!

And lots of trades know there is a demand- the construction and manufacturing workforce like many others has a huge demographics problem. Unless we want to keep filling that with immigration then we need young people making and building stuff.

I thought at the time it would have made more sense to stay with just one exam board for most mainstream subjects and stick with it for A level if the pupil's had used it for GCSE, but obviously they had their reasons.

Edexcel are the most popular board by far for GCSE maths, AQA are the most popular board by far for GCSE English. I know Edexcel was popular for maths early on because they had a really good post-exams analysis service where you could see your pupils' strengths and weaknesses and how they performed on each question (I think other exam boards have caught up now) and they also had lots of good teaching resources. I assume English teachers have their reasons for preferring the AQA syllabus.

I would be delighted if my son went into a trade but he would still need a grade 4 in English and maths for most apprenticeship,s
It's such a huge stumbling block for so many kids .

We also need to stop sneering at NMW jobs in Tesco's, though. That can also be a career path that can end up in management if we stop giving kids the idea that starting at the bottom on NMW is the dead end forever.

it doesn't have to be uni or a trade apprenticeship , there needs to in-job progression, like there once was. We have fewer industries to do that in now, but it would help if kids didn't see the few that still do offer those opportunities as dead end. McDonalds does it, but who wants their kids having a McJob?

An old school pal of mine left school at 16 with nothing higher than a 'D'. He started delivering Pizzas for a big chain and is now in senior management. That's really what we need, now, but that requires children and parents not turning their noses up at what remains of the non-specialist trade mass employment sectors.

Perfect for those who aren't going to uni, but aren't really up for being plumbers, etc.

Quite my Dh works for a subsidiary of Tesco ,they welcome bright young people .

It's the middle ground, isn't it? We've just got to get past the 'it's a dead end' attitude and start offering kids who, in the old days, would have been on the factory floor, opportunities to work their way up the old fashioned way whilst at least earning NMW.

Maybe you should do some critical thinking and read what I said.

I said that there is little difference between the GCSE specifications except clearly one of them has a Paper 1 which is non calculator and another is calculator first.
Other than that, GCSE maths is GCSE maths.

Could you point out where I said it was not important?

Edited