To have not known kids have to attain grade 4 in maths?

[Pepperpotladles]

I did not know this!
I have obviously been living under a rock.
So today someone told me that if kids get grades 1, 2 or 3 in their maths GCSE, it is compulsory that all these kids have to keep on studying GCSE maths until they achieve a grade 4 or above, and they have to keep trying to achieve this up until their 25th birthday.
Is this true?!?
I can't believe my ears.
What about kids who simply can't achieve grade 4 or above in maths, for any number of reasons?

It is. I can't tell you the shame I felt when my mum told me my teacher's response to her inquiry about extra tutoring for me. He said, 'there is no point. She isn't going to pass.'

It's only like in days of old you needed C or above in maths to get to uni. I'm not mathematically minded/dyscalculia so had to re-sit my maths gcse while doing my A levels to ensure I got a C in it.
Guess it depends on what they want to do. I wanted to get my degree so did what I had to do.

@ObelixtheGaul

And from an educational point of view, I don't really know what they could have done differently to help me understand.

Well, if the teachers keep "explaining" it in the same way, then you're never going to understand. What is needed is lots of different ways of teaching/explaining, starting by going backwards to what you "DO" understand and then moving forwards again, but doing different things and finding different ways of explaining, in very small increments.

You say you can't understand percentages, but were you competent with fractions before percentages were taught? If not, then that could be the problem. Were you ever formally told that "per cent" means per hundred - lots of people weren't/aren't where teachers just "assume" it's obvious. If you know fractions competently, then it's a very simple incremental improvement to understand that half equals 50 per cent, i.e. 50 per hundred, or in division terms 50/100, then simplify that down to 1/2 back into a fraction. Hey presto, you know understand the basics of percentages, and that's something that can be worked slowly on to improve your understanding, i.e. a quarter is 25% or 25 "per hundred" which simplified down to 1/4 again, back to the fraction you started with. Yes, to an adult, that seems simple and obvious but to a child/pupil, even a teenage one, going back a few steps to the basics like that can really be a lightbulb moment.

There are so many things that she finds hard. Start with instant recall of times tables (no, despite years of us doing this), adding 2 numbers in her head (no, because she can't hold the two numbers and the result all at the same time),

I had this issue - assume related to dyslexia and short term memory - some time tables I was working out from others and addition and used fingers for some number bonds but I have A-level maths I think difference was my primary teahcers didn't make me think I couldn't do maths.

My kids schooling seem to focus much more on mental arthimetic and one who struggled often then thought they were bad at maths.

DD1 got to y 2 and it became clear she hadn't grasped number placement - it was why she was transposing numbers - so thanks to MN we turned to mathsfactor - 4 years every day at least 20 minutes of maths a day - more with games and summer and winter schools - bar two weeks a year. It took youngest till last month so round 4 years to finally stop having to work out one bit of times table - same pattern again and again. Then they had really fast recall - teachers were always surpised by all of them.

Much as I was frustrated by their primary school maths teaching - it is hard to see how they could have given the level of practise my kids apparently needed.

For child with worst memory - a secondary maths teachers told us well they have a maths brain must have always been good at maths - we said err no in fact dyscalculia was suggested by the primary school at one point.

I think many maths probelms start in primary school -- but there a huge variation in how kids pick up maths principals - some just can't and some like my kids need ridiculous amount of practise on top of school.

My DS does not have a hope in hell of getting grade 4, he's phobic about maths and has been since primary school. He also really doesn't do well in an academic environment and wants to leave as soon as possible. He has ADHD.

I understand the concept. I can't do the sum IYSWIM. Same with fractions. It's the actual calculations. It's probably wrong of me to say I don't understand percentages in terms of knowing what they represent., I don't understand how to work out what 25% of say, 75 would be.

I understand that if I have a whole cake and cut it into four, I will have four quarters. But if you ask me what one quarter of 75 is, I couldn't tell you. The bit I don't get is how to work it out, which was always my problem.

I'm better with whole numbers, so I could tell you what half of 100 is without too much thought. I'd have to sit down and work.out half of 75, though.

Like I said an a reply to another PP, I can't subitise, I have to physically count. There doesn't seem to be any sort of connection to numbers in my brain like there is with words. When asked to spell a word, it appears as an image in my brain. I 'see' the letters slot into place.

The best way I can explain it, which is imperfect because I don't know how people who can do this actually do it is that I can't see it in my head.
I can't see how the sum should look. It's like a sort of blindness.

I'm rubbish at explaining all this, sorry, but it's like an empty space where numbers ought to be and they just... aren't.

Actually, back in the day, you really didn't if you got A levels in the subject you were going to do at uni. I did it, admittedly not immediately after college so it might have been different as a mature student (which, at 25, I was).

I had to retake maths GCSE at college, whilst doing my A levels but didn't get it. Nobody, at any stage, told me I wouldn't get into uni without it to do a degree in English literature. I think it very much depended on what subject you were applying to at uni.

I had no idea about this, my DS is 14 and has ASC and dyscalculia, awaiting an EHC decision. I just assumed if he couldn't get a maths GCSE it would just be how it is. Hopefully he might be able to get a grade 4

I'm sorry to hear that, I worry my DS might be the same. As with most SEN-related school issues, it feels like jumping through hoops for the sake of it, with no real outcome

If you had a calculator, would you be able to work out 10% or 1% of a number and understand what you have done?

i.e you've divided a number into 10 equal groups or 100 groups.

Conceptually, yes, but almost as though it's separate from the actual computation. For example, I use the % button on the calculator (now I have found it and figured out how to use it) rather than doing the actual sum to get there because I can't remember it.

What I'm trying to say (badly, I don't verbalise this often) is that I understand in an abstract, disconnected way. As you present it there, and as I have understood it, it makes perfect actual sense. But I can't relate that knowledge in words to what that means I need to do with the numbers. So when I actually have to do the maths, in that moment, no, I guess I don't understand what I am doing. But if you asked me what the concept of percentages means ten minutes later, I could give you the words.

When I write it, I realise how daft that's going to sound to someone who gets it. No wonder my teachers didn't know what to do with me.

Thats sort of how my DD describes spelling. (She has dyslexia). She knows how to spell the word "the" as an example. But sometimes the letters just don't come out right, and she will write "teh".
Or she will put a random capital in the middle of a word.

The difference is she will only lose a few marks on any test for her spelling. But you would just get the whole question wrong as the numbers would be wrong?

And I am guessing she can't see what she has done wrong?

Yes, you are right. In a spelling test, your daughter would likely not pass. But in an essay answer or composition, the spelling is only a percentage.

In a maths exam, there's some room, as you get points for your workings out, even if the answer is wrong on some questions, but I couldn't do the workings out.

It's fascinating talking about this. I don't usually. It's been over 20 years since my dyscalculia diagnosis. I mostly hide it.

No you didn’t

ODFOD. My DD may have struggled with maths and just scrapped a pass but she has compassion and empathy by the bucket load. She could probably give you some of it actually, balance out your smug attitude.

I don't understand why some posters are so smug.

Bit of a stealth boast here. I passed O level French with an A with zero revision because it was really easy - for me.

Did the "I think GCSE maths is easy and only idiots fail it" get an A in French O level (or the easier GCSE) with no revision?

The differences is that I completely understand that not everyone has a natural aptitide for languages (I also have German O level and French A level).

I apologise for my smug post 😊

Thanks for your reply.

How do you find it in real life - when everyday maths is useful. Calculators do make maths that much easier but you've still got to make sense of the calculation and to understand what the answer means.

If shes got time, she can sometimes see her mistakes. But she's slower than average at reading (due to her dyslexia) so she often doesn't have time.e to finish, let alone check her spellings...

Fortunately, it looks like she will have just enough wriggle room to get a 4 in English at GCSE.

But that is what makes maths so hard - not only do you need to be able to understand the language of maths you need to be able to work out the problem itself which is an English language issue

DS is 20 and I'm not sure if it's the 4th or 5th time he's resitting. He just about scraped his English last year but he hasn't got a chance of passing Maths. He has learning difficulties and went to special school but has continued on to a adult learning college. He'll most likely keep resitting until his EHCP is up.

It's a complete waste of his and the college's time. He can read and write and has amazing digital art skills but he just can't do numbers. He can count out loud but can't get his head around a number relating to the amount of items in front of him. Its like trying to teach him a language he's never going to understand.

Further comment - my DH used to teach Maths at night school to adults who had never got their O-level and most got decent grades. They said he had a way of explaining things that they had never had at school. Later in life he gave extra tuition to a friend's DD who wanted to be a music teacher but struggled hopelessly with Maths (essential for her course) and again said his alternative explanations were fantastic. She is now a music teacher in school. Just before Christmas our DGS (age 12) asked him if he could help with a maths topic that he didn't understand (and DGS is a very bright boy with no apparent learning issues) and within 20 minutes he was all smiles - "Grandad has a great way of explaining things" he said.

My DH has no training as a teacher, he's just good at explaining stuff.

So my advice would be to get some extra tuition to get your kids that elusive grade as an alternative approach might just do the trick for some of them.

My DH is available in N Derbyshire - free of charge for a cup of coffee and a home-made sticky bun!

I agree some things are easy for some people
Some people can do no.revision and ace exams purely because that's the way their brain works
Other ,s work incredibly hard but have to.put in a huge amount of efforts to do well in exams
And then you have others that work very hard but will never pass maths because they are just not able too.

It's surprisingly not as hard as you might think. The brain is quite good at adapting. As a simple example, some here have mentioned shopping. I know enough to make a damn good estimate about price differences on special offers, and I have been shopping for myself for 32 years. It's amazing how accurate I am now.

I used to always pay with notes pre cashless society, to avoid faffing with change, but as with everything else, experience means you find your own way to do it. There's only a certain number of coin combinations it could be. I know the combinations.

This will surprise you, but I used to work in a small resort shop. We used to accept Euros. We had the latest exchange rates on a sign on the wall. I could accept Euros and give English change where colleagues struggled, because I understood all I had to do was put the English value of the Euros handed to me into the till. I was giving English change. All I had to do was read the sheet. Others got into a right mess trying to work it out in their heads when everything they needed was in front of them. I have to think differently, find the 'cheat' if you will. Not being able to understand the way everyone else does things can mean I am not encumbered with an inability to find another method.

It's all about paying attention and using the skills I do have to compensate. Budgeting is actually really simple when you make it so. All I need to understand is receipts must be higher than outgoings. I am not completely number blind in that I understand that 9 is greater than 5 for example (some with dyscalculia don't). I am very good with home finance because I understand income and expenditure.

Mortgages somebody else mentioned, again, why do I need GCSE maths to understand what I needed to pay a mortgage and bills? My husband and I have now paid ours off after 25 years because we earned enough to meet the monthly payments between us. What more did I need to know?

I understand APR because unlike some folk who have got maths GCSE, I read the small print. I've never had a payday loan, but I absolutely understand the whopping number they put next to the letters 'APR' in the tiny print on the advert.

Same with credit cards. All I actually need to know is that I must pay it off every month. If I knew I wouldn't be able to do that, I wouldn't be using the card that month. It's surprising how many people with much better maths brains than me, and that GCSE we can't apparently do without don't understand interest on things like store cards. I do. I couldn't do the precise calculation but I understand the concept that if you run up a debt on it you will have to pay back more than you would if you paid promptly.

It's about maximising what I do understand IYSWIM. Of course, there's things I can't do, like people with other disabilities. But I have never been out of work, in debt aside from a mortgage, I have savings and a pension, like most people with that magic grade I haven't got. On the whole, it really hasn't made much difference. Let's face it, a grade C, or 4 as it is now wasn't exactly going to see me on the path to some Megabucks finance job, or get me on course to be a brain surgeon.

Luckily, I could still do a degree because they weren't as fussy when I was doing it about me having maths to study English Literature. I know that's changed now, and I understand why, but it's daft to close doors to bright people who excel at a subject because they can't do another.

That's really good to hear.

And yes, just because people understand maths doesn't mean they can use it sensibly.

APR being one example. I saw an advert on TV for a loan at 1001% APR yesterday.

Yes, I have seen that. I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole unless I was desperate, yet people take out loans to buy holidays and run up massive debts on store cards. I'd sooner go without.

It helps that I was brought up to go without rather than borrow, the importance of savings, etc and living within your means. And ultimately, that really been all the 'life-maths' I have ever needed.

It's been nice to be asked. Thank you for asking how I managed without assuming I just rely on others, and my life is some terrible struggle. Some of the posts on here are frankly depressing.