To have not known kids have to attain grade 4 in maths?

[Pepperpotladles]

I did not know this!
I have obviously been living under a rock.
So today someone told me that if kids get grades 1, 2 or 3 in their maths GCSE, it is compulsory that all these kids have to keep on studying GCSE maths until they achieve a grade 4 or above, and they have to keep trying to achieve this up until their 25th birthday.
Is this true?!?
I can't believe my ears.
What about kids who simply can't achieve grade 4 or above in maths, for any number of reasons?

If you 'get' maths, then yes the Foundation paper could be considered quite easy. But if you don't 'get' maths then it isn't.

I'm in the (slightly frustrating) position in having a degree in maths but with a DD who needs to resit (again).

There are so many things that she finds hard. Start with instant recall of times tables (no, despite years of us doing this), adding 2 numbers in her head (no, because she can't hold the two numbers and the result all at the same time), wordy problems (because, well, dyslexia), long problems (complete lack of confidence so will often stop before the end even if going in the right direction), naming of shapes (recall of less used stuff, the words get buried i the filing cabinet of her mind). Ultimately she can do most aspects on the paper, but can't hold enough of it in the forefront of her mind all in one go. Add that to low stamina due to her MH difficulties she is still recovering from which means she runs out of steam.

@sashh Recipe doubling or halving or tripling is ratios not algebra or simultaneous equations.

The disingenuousness and faux naivety of some posters on this thread is breathtaking.

Some people just don't 'get' maths. Just because they didn't know anyone could get a grade 4 or their year 6 pupils could pass a foundation paper doesn't mean anything, and just makes them look and sound like an idiot and a crashing snob.

I have a friend whose DD achieved 8s and 9s for all GCSE subjects except maths where she got a 4. She went on to achieve exceptionally well at A level and an excellent law degree, but maths was and still is her bete noire.

Please stop sneering at people who struggle with maths.

@InPraiseOfIdleness the National Reference Tests are used to decide if a year group is particularly bright or not so much, and they adjust grade boundaries accordingly so it is possible to make comparisons between year groups.

Hah!

@Butchyrestingface I see it's going well!

Many of the non calculator questions give process marks which require you to show working out.

Can you understand that this is a challenge for many learners?

Whilst this is true, the maths I see my year 10 child struggling with has no practical use in life. I’m talking solving inequal equations and the like.

I’m in my fifties, cannot do most of the maths my child has to learn (even after watching the sodding video, which never quite matches the question they have to answer), but I have a very good career and have never ever needed it.

I think there should be a basics maths for everyone with the truly useful stuff in it and leave all the pointless stuff for A Level or advanced maths GCSE.

You really can't think outside your own little bubble can You ?
I.can do it so everyone can do it 🙄

Yes same but for the most part i get maths

But could you open a paper in cyrillic or mandarin and be able to answer it?

and yes you could learn it and you could then answer it or it could always look like Cyrillic because no matter what you did or how hard you worked you couldn’t make it make sense

and that is what maths is for a lot of people. You show the Cyrillic paper to a native speaker and it would instantly make sense and they could do it and answer but for you it still wouldn’t make sense. And you don’t have SEN or extreme learning difficulties as you said because you read something in English it makes sense

@ElfAndSafetyBored

I think there should be a basics maths for everyone with the truly useful stuff in it and leave all the pointless stuff for A Level or advanced maths GCSE.

Google for sample 11+ maths papers and you’ll see a pretty good basic level of numeracy which would be ideal for such a basic maths exam as you suggest. All the basics and none of the more advanced/harder stuff. That kind of level should be the minimum school leaving standard and gateway for taking harder maths to check the basics for more maths- able students at a younger age for selection into streams/sets etc

such as https://owltutors.co.uk/resources/papers/11-plus/maths-paper1.pdf

Someone doing Foundation Maths will have had a 6 years of primary maths and 5 years at secondary maths.

That's a lot of maths lessons.

We then split them into 2 groups -pupils who do Higher Maths and those who do Foundation Maths.

I don't know what proportion take Higher versus those who take Foundation.

73% of pupils achieved the expected level at KS2 maths.
60% of pupils achieved Grade 4 or more at GCSE maths.

For the pupils, that's 5 years in secondary school going over many of the same concepts they would have done in primary school - as when you compare a KS2 SATS paper and a Foundation Maths GCSE, there's not much difference for 5 more years of learning

Maths Foundation GCSE

https://cdn.sanity.io/files/p28bar15/green/1170ee44760aa53249c184343b19e67944c49a52.pdf

KS2 Maths paper

https://www.mathsgenie.co.uk/primary/SATS2022P2.pdf

I agree. Something is going badly wrong with the teaching when there are such poor outcomes after so many years of teaching. It all goes back to the basics. Maths is like a tree, if you don’t have solid foundations, the roots, then nothing will grow above the surface. Catch the strugglers early and just concentrate on the basics. No point teaching more complicated stuff if they can’t do the simpler things as you are just setting them up to fail.

If you look at the Foundation paper, you need about 40 marks to get a Grade 4.

Most of those marks can be gained on concepts that will have been mostly taught in primary school.

But for some reason, 6 years of primary education and 5 years at secondary covering those same concepts again and again and the pupils still struggle on them in an exam.

How disengaging must that be for secondary pupils who are doing percentage again and not getting it, ratio again and not getting it.

So, not a challenge for you, then. Jolly good. Thank you for letting us know. I have a sub-standard intellect. I can't do any of it in my head.

On this paper, get up to Question 13 right and you have got over 40 marks

https://cdn.sanity.io/files/p28bar15/green/1170ee44760aa53249c184343b19e67944c49a52.pdf

Question 13 is a percentage question. Something that is covered regularly in primary schools.

28 is increased by 25%
40 is decreased by 15%
Which answer is bigger?
Show how you decide.

It's worth 4 marks.

The questions past this are on inequalites, factorisation, some complex volume stuff.

But up to Question 13, it's concepts that are covered in primary school.

If the grade boundaries are moved each year so that only 60% of kids can pass, then it doesn't matter how great the teaching is, a huge chunk will fail.

It would be better to have a baseline that everyone had to achieve on a paper of the same standard each year and then allow 80% or even 100% to pass if they reach the standard.

But - I suppose the question is - looking at those questions, how many pupils are still struggling with those questions that they covered at primary level and for 5 years at secondary - the same core concepts

It's an interesting question and I don't know the answer to that.
Although I can't really see if another test is justified, I think it might be useful to have some kind of test in Year 9 to test basic concepts and then funnel people into foundation or functional skills as appropriate.
I think with the right support, some of that 40% could get a 4 or a good enough functional skills grade and not have to retake.

It's not as simple as it being 'covered' though, is it? Times tables were 'covered' endlessly when I was at primary school. I still didn't know them because they wouldn't stay in there.

I know we did percentages in school. It was many years ago, but I know we did it. I still can't work out percentages without a calculator (and I had to find out how to do that, because we weren't allowed to use them for percentages in school).

I don't really understand why my brain doesn't grasp it, but it wasn't because I wasn't taught how to do it.

And from an educational point of view, I don't really know what they could have done differently to help me understand.

Whilst I now know I have dyscalculia, because it wasn't diagnosed (or even recognised) when I was at school, I don't know what needs to be done differently to help people like me, for whom just 'covering' it isn't enough.

How many children sit in class just not getting it, like I did? What do teachers do with the kids who simply don't understand? It's not enough to just keep repeating something someone hasn't understood properly, but might be able to do, parrot fashion, in the moment.

They don't just do Maths at 16... the GCSE period is intense, probably doing 6-8 subjects at least.

It could well be they could do better if the Maths exam was in February or March, so they were just concentrating on that.

Because it still looks like Cyrillic to them.

Maths is in many ways a language, which has its own unique rules and structures.

For some maths is an easier language to learn than English. It just makes sense

for some it is a language that goes hand in hand with learning how to read

and for some no matter how hard they try no matter how much they look at it it is a language which doesn’t make sense

My DS could have passed it then too. Before his MH breakdown.

Fuck me. What a horrible thing to say about other kids who aren’t as bright as yours.

Some kids just struggle with maths. DD had an uphill battle with it all her young school years. Worked her bloody socks off where other bright kids were happy to coast because their natural ability meant they didn’t need to try. Did not give up. Got a 2 in her GCSE mock and was distraught. So sje spent half an hour with her dad almost every evening from then to her exam doing additional study (on top of school revision workshops and seeing a tutor).

When she opened her results and got a 4 (to jump from a 2 to a 4 in 5 months is a HUGE accomplishment. Fucking HUGE. Those boundaries are wider than the ones at the top) I almost cried with pride.

She now flying at A Levels with loving it.

Also interestingly doing Sociology and currently working on school systems. Reading how some schools will focus their efforts and resources on the high achieving kids as they know they will do well. While kids like her who work hard but struggle are left to flounder.

Thank you, yes, that's it exactly. I used to say that I just don't 'see' it. I'm a good speller. I can 'see' words in my head, watch them form in my brain. I can't do that with calculations.

I can look at a word and instantly my brain, without any thought, will 'tell' me what it is, even if it's written backwards or jumbled up. But I can't subitise. If I see a collection of objects, to know how many there are I'd have to count them, even if there are fewer than ten there.

And it's those same core concepts that are being revisited again and again but pupils still struggle to understand them

Which has to be massively disheartening.

DD already has level 3 vocational qualifications and UCAS points in her chosen area.

But she got a 3 in English (2 marks off a 4) and a 2 in maths at GCSE so can't study for a BTech in her chosen area, where she is talented.

She is now a NEET, because in the time it took to get the English GCSE remarked all the level 2 courses filled up. Not that any of them were in her areas of interest.

She has a private tutor and is focusing on Functional skills English. If she can.pass that she can do the BTech in her area of interest. The BTech is 70% practical, and the remaining 30% is written work, but not under exam conditions. She'll be fine. But until she ticks a box in an unrelated subject that she struggles with, she can't study something she's good at.

Under the current system she will then have to continually resit GCSE Maths, and probably fail each time, until she completes her BTech. Paid for by the tax payer.

She worked hard and her school gave her every support including small group classes, daily classes and one to.one help. She still got a 2. The resits will be a 3 hours a week in a block, and in a large class with no individual help. The chances of getting a 4 under those conditions are pretty much non existent, and I won't expect her to do anything other than turn up to class. Her time and energy will be better spent elsewhere.