Another Lap-Dancing one

[LindenAvery]

Hi, I have been reading thru' some past threads on the subject due to OH going on a Stag do later this year and came across this

lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,,2266504,00.html.

I have changed my opinion and think all OH's that go to these clubs should read article and comment on the statistics stated. They are not ones to be proud of.

Linden: that's a pretty broad post so let me answer more specifically and in terms of me.

In terms of the growth of stag weekends, I think they reflect the fact that a much higher proportion of disposal income is now spent on travel and entertainment - since 1971, expenditure on recreation and culture (the comparable definition) has increased by almost 600%. Twenty years ago there were 87 million flights from UK airports; last year there were 240 million. That sounds like a cop-out but it's not, and neither is it taking refuge in statistics. It's pretty clear that people travel more internationally, holiday more frequently and spend more money on leisure activities than they did even ten years ago. The growth in the stag weekend industry, to me at least, simply reflects that - people treat a weekend in Barcelona the same way that my parents would have treated a weekend in Bridlington. Men simply aren't as content with a night in the local pub with a few ales as they would have been in the past.

From a subjective perspective, there is also an increasing feeling that stag weekends need to live up to what is expected of them. Guy's expectations are increasingly set by the ones they've been on, and every best man wants to make their stag weekend one to remember. If everyone has just been clubbing in Ibiza on the last one, or driving tanks in Slovakia, the best man is unlikely to think that the best stag weekend he can deliver is down the Dog & Duck in Romford. That's not always the case of course, and certainly some guys want a very simple stag-do, but generally, I think that's the trend (having been on quite a few and organised a couple).

I'd also add that the concept that stag weekends are organised so people can go to lap-dance clubs or find prostitutes is in my experience is just utterly wrong. Sure, I'm not saying it doesn't go on but never in my experience, or that of anyone I know. What they are is a chance for boys to get together, get incredibly drunk, act like idiots, stay up late and do stupid but immensely fun activities (be it paintballing, climbing, go kart racing or shooting AK47s). Very immature? Probably. Do people end up in LDCs on stag weekends? Absolutely. Is that what the weekend is about? No.

Would DW respect me more if I refused to go to LDCs when I'm on a stag weekend? Hmmmm, good question. I don't know. Possibly, although I wouldn't be refusing out of any sense of principle. As I mentioned before, I think they're loud, dull and expensive and I'd far rather be in a normal club than an LDC but I have no moral objection to them. If I thought that the women were being exploited or that they caused tangible harm to society in general (e.g. increased violence against women) it would be very different but despite debates offline and on here, I'm yet to be convinced of either.

Good debate cest!

I unfortunately do know of one such stag weekend that was organised in this way to prague because it was to be bigger and better than the previous stag do there.(This is where I have the problem of where does bigger and better lead).

The reason I know this is one of the single guys did decide to share with other people unconnected with the wedding what had happened - not sticking to the 'what goes on tour stays on tour' mentality.

He could not believe the number of attached guys who did sleep with prostitutes out there as the lap-dancing club they were in (as a lot in Prague, it seems) was also a brothel. He did happen to say that everyone would be 'safe' from a health point of view because the girls are all cleaned and checked. From my own health prof. background I did draw attention to the fact that there is no such thing as 'safe' only 'safer' and if it turned out he had a health problem I did not think there was a trading standards he could raise his complaint with!!

And by the way he did ponder on this and went to a STD clinic just to make sure and it turned out he had got hepatitis although he could have picked this up anywhere. And did he tell other stag- weekend members? What do you think?

Sorry 'clean and checked'

As far as stag-do's go, not everyone who goes to a lap Dancing club pays for a lap-dance.

Beaniesteve why do you think that is?

Yes, very good debate Linden! Nice to have one which doesn't descend into name-calling.

Like I said, I'm sure some stag weekends like the one you describe do go on just as some guys will use prostitutes. I've never come across them, or heard anyone I know mention them, so I suspect these are very much in the minority (I could be entirely wrong of course but in the absence of any evidence to suggest otherwise I can only go on my own experience). Therefore going on a stag weekend to me, and probably a lot of men, does not carry any implication that there'll be LDCs or anything else of that ilk (or worse).

Stretching the debate a little further on LDCs, I was also wondering about something else: at what stage for women does being able to wear what she wants/ act as she wants stop being empowerment and start being exploitation?

My Dh has since we started going out 15 yrs ago asked my permission if I minded i f he went to ldc on stag weekends ect. I dont. so he does, at a push 2 a year, doesnt always gets a dance, usually just the stag and they just have 1-2 drinks then head out to enjoy the rest of the weekend. I trust hum implicetly, otherwise I would say no and he wouldnt go.
Also i work in a call centre with lots of very clever and gorgeous girls 20-26 students. By their own admission, on top of working in the evenings in the centre they (4 in the past 4 years) also do a weekend dancing in a LDC he help pay student loans, debts and to pay for nice extras. These are no bimbos who dont know any better, they have their heads screwed on. each to their own i say

Why? Because it's expensive for a start. Also because some men just don't find Lap Dancing acceptable or it's not something they are comfortable doing. I think there are lots of men who are happy to go to these places as part of a stag do but are more happy to sit back and leave it up to those who do want to indulge.

Having been a student myself I find that really sad that in order to pay for student loans they have had to resort to LDC's.

No one has said they have not got their head's screwed on - just that there may well come a time when they regret that decision and I wonder how they view the punters and whether it will affect any relationships they have/will go on to have.

Cest - good question, probably worth posting as a new thread.

beaniesteve - then if that is true I would hope that those men who find it unacceptable would just not go in them. It comes across as being very sad that they could be doing this because of a herd mentality or for not wanting to face the comments from the guys that do want to go in them (bullying??).

How often do we tell our children just because so and so did that doesn't mean you have to...

Again the men who go in but don't have a dance because it is 'unacceptable' are they lying because they still like the idea of viewing naked women or cowards because they can't stand up to their mates? Neither shows them in a good light!

But what I mean is maybe they have no objections to going in, but they for whatever reason wouldn't pay for a dance.

Surely most men like the idea of viewing a naked woman? Should they be ashamed of that?

I meant paying to view naked woman as if a woman's body can be bought. That it is her external appearance that is all that matters and the effect it has on men.

Which is what LDC's are really all about.

Linden: posted question on a separate thread in chat.

I think some guys who do find it unacceptable do not go in, but those are few and far between (a couple in my experience). Others may find it unacceptable and go in because of the herd mentality, but if they do I've never heard anyone confess it. I think the majority find it acceptable (to some degree) and therefore have no issue with it.

Which brings us full circle - if the majority find it acceptable that means it has entered the mainstream and been normalised into society.

A man attending a strip club 25 years ago would have been a big and shocking event. Most men did not visit them. Now it is considered perfectly normal behaviour both by men and by many women. My DH has been on stag do's where they visited LDC's. He feels very uncomfortable in them but has gone along because he is celebrating an impending marriage and so of course joins in with all the activities.

Interestingly he has just said that he personally feels it is still rather taboo to visit LDC's hence his embarassment and discomfort.

I wonder how much of an industry is being driven by a load of men who, on balance, would really sooner be having a couple down the Dog & Duck but are too scared to admit it!

Interesting thread. I spent three months in lapdancing clubs as research for a television drama. What I saw turned my stomach. The women vary in intelligence, the brightest ones using the top wages (up to £250,000 a year)to invest in property and businesses. The others turned to drugs and prostitution. There was a lot of prostitution, all kept under wraps. What shocked me the most was the ordinariness of the men. They were mostly good looking, young, it seemed to me it has become a lifestyle choice. For £15 you can get a woman to strip for you, it gives you power. For £400 you can have her to yourself for an hour. No touching? The men may not be allowed to touch, but the women can rub their bodies all over the men, and they do, as they've been instructed by the management. At times I felt like I was in a zoo. It left me feeling very depressed about the male race.

And by the way, none of the lapdancers would allow their boyfriends to visit a lapdancing club. I wouldn't either after what I've seen. And I was in the more respectable type of establishments.

There's also a sense of it becoming addictive, like a drug. Beautiful naked women on tap, the promise of sex, the fantasy that all the women fancy you (because they're trained to convince you, in order to take your money), it's an incredibly potent world.

msdynamo, What a brilliant post!

Cest - and maybe your post could suggest a lot more about reality of men.

I think it was Frank Skinner who said that groups of heterosexual men ( as friends ) spend a lot of time trying to establish that they are not homosexual hence for most conversations between men bordering on 'safe' topics such as football, other sports and comments on women's looks. And no this was not part of a joke, just an observation from his autobiography.

If mates can start legitimizing something by saying what a great time they had at an LDC on a stage do, they don't have to feel bad about it. Yet is it possible that men are not honest with other men about how things make them feel or affect them?

Instead is it easier to lie to others and yourselves? That way you never have to face your real feelings, and never change the way you are. And go on making the same mistake?

In covering up this truth and lying to mates it just encourages others to do exactly the same thing. And if they feel bad about it won't they just feel that something is wrong with them? And rather that admitting to their fears they just continue to lie?

As in stag- do should involve LDC's - all the websites involved with organised trips have them there as a package. The more that stag weekends incorporate them - the more pressure exists to visit them else it challenges the image of what men are supposed to like and consider acceptable.

Back to my original argument of LDC's potentially increasing the violence to women within the locality, even if this has not been proven beyond doubt - should at least give men the opportunity to just stop and think before they visit them because if it is ever proven would you be able to handle the association.

Cest - at least you seem to have some concern for the girls working there, my concern would be that some men don't and do not even view them as a human beings. And by it becoming mainstream you are allowing it to happen.

and maybe Nick Fisher sums it up best

'Because sex is so powerful, men and women often make errors of judgement:they're more influenced by their hormones than by their sense of decency, fair play or conscience'

Do you ever think it is down to safety in numbers - as in everybody went , so so did I? Or that those men who perhaps are envious of others in happy, stable relationships and are not able to form relationships of their own, take some perverse pleasure in the knowledge that they could create trouble within a relationship by insisting on a stag-weekend involving LDC's or even brothels?

And even if a visit to an LDC is all about creating humiliation for the groom (and potentially his bride ) what does that say about friendship?

Just have to agree to disagree. However I do know of several relationships (and children) who have been wrecked because of the differences of opinion on this matter, and just feel this is a problem that is unlikely to just go away.

Yes, I think agree to disagree sounds very sensible Linden, although it's been very interesting debating (and avoiding the usual debacle that these threads end up in).

For what it's worth, I think the simplest answer is that the majority of guys simply don't really think about it in the same way that guys don't really think about say, the implications of lads mags or porn. Maybe because if there are any negative effects on society, then they're not felt by them. Or maybe because guys genuinely don't feel there is a problem. One thing which seems pretty clear from the debates on here alone is that many people, both male and female do not view them as a problem.

In my own experience the majority of guys don't love LDCs, neither do they hate LDCs. If the group is going, then they'll go. If it's not, then they won't be bothered. It might be herd mentality, but only to the same extent that if the group said we're going to this bar, club or restaurant they'd also go. That sounds rather damning, but it's only damning if you think there is a problem with LDCs, otherwise they're simply another entertainment venue. Yes, you might say just "another entertainment venue!!!!'" (I can imagine the exclamation marks from here!) but, if the person doing doesn't view or doesn't think about LDCs as being bad for society, then actually that's all they are to them.

Debate has left me thinking about several issues, maybe cest you could post after next stag do you go on - be interested in any observations you had.

Unfortunately as this is not likely to happen, it would be interesting if you could see it from reverse angle, as in hen weekend - loads of women (including your OH) entering lap-dance bars to pay for men to dance, gyrate and rub their naked bodies all over women quite happily paying for this entertainment.

Sadly, am getting to an age where I have one stag-do a year at best!

Actually, DW has been to a couple of male-strip clubs/ had male strippers at hen weekends she's been on and I genuinely don't mind. I recall, in fact, at uni that they had one round their living room for one of their housemate's birthdays. Obviously, if she was groping them I'd be pretty pissed off, but then if I touched any women in a strip club she'd cut my bollocks off so I think we're about equal there. Actually we've also been to The Church (a fairly appalling but amusing Antipodean club in London) with various mates where we've seen both male and female strippers on stage.

Just reread last post - came across as a bit aggressive so I apologise.

Cest - sounds like you have a great relationship- something to be happy and thankful about. Thanks for your replies.

Thanks to others for posts too.

cestlavie-would she cut your bollocks off if you were touched by a lap dancer/stripper though,or only if you touched them?