Another Lap-Dancing one

[LindenAvery]

Hi, I have been reading thru' some past threads on the subject due to OH going on a Stag do later this year and came across this

lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,,2266504,00.html.

I have changed my opinion and think all OH's that go to these clubs should read article and comment on the statistics stated. They are not ones to be proud of.

Possibly these type of establishments, presenting women in an overtly sexually accessible way, combined with alcohol, does make some men more likely to commit an assualt than if they had just gone to a normal pub.

I certainly don't think that all men would be affected like this, just that it's possible that it increases the likelihood for some of them. Posie's point is good though maybe it convcentrates all the dodgy men in the area of the clubs - you'd think they could then mobilise more police on the street to counteract this. Or better still close these clubs. Diva I will sign your petition.

I do think though that it is part of an increasing trend in society generally to treat women as sexually accessible objects and this can't help but affect the way that the "average" man (if you like) views women.

this page contains a link to the original research - I'm posting it because I'm too lazy to download Acrobat and thus can't read PDFs, but it might contain some of the answers to your questions, beanie?

And it is true that many men who assualt genuinely don't realise that they have done anything wrong. I have experience of this and the man involved was considered by all and sundry (including me before the incident) to be a thoroughly nice and decent chap.

Unfortunately men do commit assaults of varying levels of seriousness all the time and most of the time probably think that they are "just joking" and that the woman is overreacting.

I believe strongly that the proliferation of highly sexulaised images of women, and the availability of such images whether in the flesh or in the media, have meant that many men have little respect for women any more and a lot of them feel, to a certain extent, that they have the tacit permission of society to do wthat they like.

i think my partner would have to be one of those type of men in the first place to visit a lap dancing club

Diva is the petition generally known about on MN? I bet it would get a lot of signatures from here. I had no idea there was such a thing.

There has been some quite convincing research to show that men (AND women) who watch a lot of hardcore porn are likely to have much less sympathy with rape victims, believe that rape vicims enjoy being raped, believe that rape victims suffer relatively little trauma, believe that any healthy woman would be able to fight off a rapist if she really wanted to, and so on (link here).

It's not such a leap to think that lapdancing clubs might induce a similar range of distorted thinking, is it?

I'm not defending lapdancing, I am I suppose attempting to defend women against being blamed for causing rape. There's a much wider issue here about the way women are demonised and also about the way men are treated.

Personally I would not want to be with a man for whom frequenting lap dancing clubs was the norm, but I can understand why some men go to them for stag dos and the like and I can also understand why it can be a titilating enjoyable thing for someone but not lead to those men sexually assaulting women.

I just find any argument which tries to take the blame for rape away from the rapist a little weird.

I know it's a much wider issue (rape) and that there are many different kinds of rapist (ie opportunistic, predatory etc) and I am not willfully trying to disagree with you but I do think that the whole issue of what titlates human beings is much more complex than just saying 'lapdancing is wrong and should be stopped'.

i'm a man and have been to a lapdancing club twice in my life.neither time have i come out and sexually assaulted anyone (or at anyother point in my life).
i think to try and blame these places for turning men into rapists is highly insulting to men and only serves to reduce the blame of offenders.
the reason i did not address the statistics in the article is because as a man i would be reluctant to discuss rape and rape statistics with a group of anonymous women as i fear i would not articulate my opinions and also not knowing other peoples personal history may offend some unwittingly if i thought i was in a hypothetical debate and was arguing with someone who has suffered a rape.

OK here's another way of looking at it. I'm sure most men would be very pleased if all the pubs in the country started hiring topless barmaids. This doesn't mean it should be allowed.

So putting all the sexual assualt stuff to one side, and looking at it from this perspective, I still think it is wrong.

Because the prevalence of images of women as sexually accessible, and the way these images are being normalised in our society, does all women and girls a disservice.

And we haven't even touched on the fact that women may have been trafficed in the first place and may be performing/doing other things against their will.

The whole industry is seeding and unpleasant in the extreme I think.

seedy

the majority of women do not choose to work in the sex industry, yes some make poor chioces, but there aren't many middle class, well balanced, happy and untroubled women putting it in their career plan are there?

chukkypig-i havent seen the petition on MN anywhere.i got sent a link to it from the object facebook group.

i wasnt thinking of lap-dancing clubs being linked to predatory rapists,those i think are a very small minority.its those who commit so-called 'date rape' and those who rape their wives/partners who often dont believe theyve done anything wrong.

or scumbags like jonny vegas who sexually assault young women for entertainment purposes.

"but there aren't many middle class, well balanced, happy and untroubled women putting it in their career plan are there? "

i could say exactly the same thing about refuse collectors, cleaning staff,road sweepers and any other number of low paid menial jobs. people take these jobs not out of a devine love for them but because they have to pay the rent, the same as every one of us who works in a job they hate. the fact is that for women who choose to go into stripping they have decided they don't want these jobs and they figure they can make better/easier money stripping.
this of course does not apply to women trafficed in no more than illegal child labour equates to people working of their own free will in a manufacturing factory.
those illegal practices should be stopped and anyone found in violation of them prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

I don't think porn/ldcs turn 'ordinary' men into rapists. I believe what they do do (and the research backs this up) is encourage those men who are already disposed towards sexual violence to act out their fantasies/impulses. And you only have to consider rape/sexual assault statistics for a short while to come to the sad conclusion that men who are predisposed towards sexual violence make up a significant minority of the male population.

I don't think this ordinary, non-sexually-violent men should find this observation insulting; it's a simply fact that the overwhelming proportion of sexual violence is committed by men, usually against women and children. And it's not as though rape, sexual assault and child rape are so desperately unusual. So, the horrible but logical conclusion is that there are significant numbers (albeit a minority) of sexually violent men out there.

"I don't think this ordinary, non-sexually-violent men should find this observation insulting"

we probably shouldn't but because most humans have a pack mentality we probably do.
not that i'd want to be in a pack with sexual offenders.
i think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the fear of a false accusation would pretty much top the bill of the worst thing that could happen to a man, and so the normalising of the idea that all men (or a significant number) are potential rapists is something we automatically become defensive about.
where as naturally for women safety is paramount so getting the idea that protecting yourself is the number one priority is essential to protect potential victims.
i think such things can quite often become clear when there are high-profiled media cases. because of media coverage most men imagine what it would be like to be in that position, and because of the legal system rape is so hard to prove then often the man is found to be not guilty. so men look at what has happened to a mans life (branded a rapist/ostracised from soceity) and he is technically innocent, he has been found guilty of no crime but he is being punished still.and that scares the crap outta me.
where as women would like to see a rapist be jailed but because of the law often see them walk free and think of what the victim has been through and then to see her tormentor walk free.
this is probably all bollox but that is often how i see it from my male perspective.

i have no problem with strip/lap dancing clubs and have attended them with my DH and others. i also don't think it degrades women. if anything, it undermines the man. he's paying for a woman to take her clothes off. really, it's silly that a man would do this. in my experience with women who have issues with them, many believing they create sexual assault situations and others believing themselves for speaking for women, all have self-esteem issues themselves, particularly concerning their own body. as far as statistics go, it's safe to say they are constructed to prove a theory. it would be interesting to know how many of the said percentage of sexual assault and rape happenings in actually was the direct cause of the men recently being at these establishments. and no, brothels are not the same.

Thanks for all of you taking the time to post.

I think after discussions with several male friends last night, the issue here is that men don't wish to consider the wider implications for their actions. Ok stag- dos are supposed to be about having fun and enjoying yourself, but at what cost if lap-dancing clubs etc are involved. The reality is this type of thing is invading our subconscious selves and shifting the goal posts all the time on what is acceptable and normal. I just wish men would take the time to stop and think before entering these places.

In Australia a few years back there was a hard-hitting campaign directed at men just to get them thinking about such a thing. It said take 4 women, your mother, your sister, your wife and your daughter. It's a sad fact that one of them will be seriously sexually assaulted within their lifetime........which one?

By visiting lap-dancing clubs men (and women ) are condoning a society where sexual assault in all its forms is a commonplace occurrance. Unfortunately most men distance themselves from this until maybe it becomes personal. What price a laugh and a cheap thrill?

That's interesting BOD, and fair enough as far as it goes. Of course false accusation must be a horrible experience.

But the male mindset that you describe is not an argument for failing to act on what research suggests is a significant trigger for sexual violence. Just because you or your friends (or my DP or sons or male friends, I like to think) wouldn't be triggered by a visit to a lapdancing club, that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, or that research that suggests it does should not be acted on.

"By visiting lap-dancing clubs men (and women ) are condoning a society where sexual assault in all its forms is a commonplace occurrance"

absolute garbage.

And no no self-esteem issues here i was using the report that sexual assaults rose in an area where a new club opened, of course there may be other reasons for this rise.

People do not like to face the reality of sexual assault being more likely to come from a person who knows or already have a relationship with the victim. It is possible it has some basis in a massive communication problem between expectarions and assumptions.

Lap-dancing is a women behaving in a sexual way towards a man , the normal interpretation would be that she was doing it for the man's pleasure and arousal as well as her own. And yet the reality here is that the reason is for money and she is not sexually available. If that's not a mixed message then I don't know what is.

and if you think that a 'sexual' object is the only thing men see women as your deluded. there are 3 major categories: sexual object, pious homemaker/mother object, career women object. and regardless of whether you are working in this industry, you as a woman, are still viewed as a sexual object. watch your DH/DP next time a hot thing walks by. don't tell me he doesn't have a look. that's called the 'gaze'; something that we discuss at length in the art world.

So if men ( and women) can check out others all the time - why the need for lap-dancing/strip joints?

I don't know of any lap-dancing clubs that hire obviously pregnant women- do you?