Another Lap-Dancing one

[LindenAvery]

Hi, I have been reading thru' some past threads on the subject due to OH going on a Stag do later this year and came across this

lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,,2266504,00.html.

I have changed my opinion and think all OH's that go to these clubs should read article and comment on the statistics stated. They are not ones to be proud of.

"so getting the idea that protecting yourself is the number one priority is essential to protect potential victims."

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Did you know that the majority of rapes and sexual assaults are committed by people known to their victim? This is what the national statistics say. What kind of protection are you talking about?

I really agree with that point about mixed messages, Linden. I really think there is something uniquely twisted about lap-dancing clubs. At least porn is intended to be masturbated to, and so the consumer finds some sort of reasonably instant sexual release. Prostitution, similarly, usually results in orgasm for the punter. In both scenarios, at least the man is not sent out into the night with a belly full of beer and an erection.

Lap-dancing, OTOH, is a scenario in which a woman deliberately induces a state of high sexual arousal in the punter, but he is not allowed to follow through on his most basic/urgent physical impulses. So these men (or some of them) do go out into the night with a belly full of beer and an erection. This is both twisted (at a human level) and incredibly dangerous, IMO.

a friend of mine is a dancer and trust me, there is no 'arousal' on the dancers part. they are paid to 'fake' interest in the guy that is paying them. when you buy a lap dance, you are told what the rules are. it is clear. have you even seen one, and i don't mean in a movie or on the bbc?

"As a matter of interest did you masturbate when you went to the strip club BOD or did you do it afterwards?"

what a bizzare question.

no. because he understands that it is entertainment. besides he gets his share at home. oh ya, i strip and lap dance him.

dittany, you've never been out for a kick ass meal. i've been turned on by food.

"Lap-dancing, OTOH, is a scenario in which a woman deliberately induces a state of high sexual arousal in the punter, but he is not allowed to follow through on his most basic/urgent physical impulses. So these men (or some of them) do go out into the night with a belly full of beer and an erection. This is both twisted (at a human level) and incredibly dangerous, IMO"

OH Please! When men go to a lap dancing club the vast majority of them know that they can't follow on with their basic physical impulses. There are men who can go out, see a stripper or a lap dancer, get aroused and then go home and not feel forced into some kind of dangerous attack or behaviour and I really do think it's pushing the boundaries of commen sense to suggest otherwise. As for 'urgent' impulses... most men are well in control of these impulses, if they weren't then imagine what day to day life would be like!

Yes - there's a minority who will offend in some way but they would anyway, with or without having seen a lap-dance.

It really is doing most ordinarly normal men a diservice to suggest that lap-dancing is able to turn them into men capable of sexual assault and rape.

Linden/ Policy: those are really good, thoughful posts.

Linden: you're absolutely right. I've been to quite a few lap-dance clubs on stag weekend and never generally think about the implications and I don't think most guys on a stag-weekend give it much thought either. Having seen it discussed on MN quite often, I think I'd give it more thought now.

Policy: You're right about the mixed messages which is one of the reasons why I was never really keen on these places even when single - I'd rather have a girl actually fancy me than pretend to fancy me. That being said, whilst conceptually it's dangerous to send out pissed up, turned on blokes into the night in terms of the research, I'd be honestly interested to see the research linking lap-dancing clubs with increased violence against women. The original article (in the OP) was just woefully written. I also looked through the Lilith Project Report (and the extended report in 2007) which you linked but the crime statistics section was brief, confusing and just really short in terms of analysis. The 2007 report just reiterated the result of the 2003 Camden analysis. It seemed that their overall conclusion in both reports was not that opening of lap-dancing clubs increased crime against women but that it caused (as they term it) 'environmental health' problems, e.g. minicab touting, large groups of drunk men etc. Personally, if it was shown that there was a link then that is a very good reason in itself to ban lap-dancing clubs.

If, on the other hand, there isn't a link then why would we be banning it? If the customer (the guy) and the woman both freely choose to participate in the situation, what is the reason for banning it? Looking through the Lilith reports (which let's face it, aren't exactly non-partisan) I can't see anything which says women are being forced into the job - in the article in the original OP, the woman, whilst saying it's a disgusting and degrading job, chooses to do it and chooses to leave it. Now clearly, even in the absence of any statistics I imagine there will be some women who are forced into it, but, as in any industry, the way it's dealt with is through legislation and enforcement rather than putting a block on the entire industry.

dittany, do you come every time you are aroused?

oh i don't pretend and no, no competition. i always engage and have fun really. it's just fun. an not at every interval. don't think he doesn't have to do anything for just me. besides, he cooks and pulls in the pay cheque so i be 'artist'... not exactly starving mind you. i just love sex and we've been together for 18 years and it just never gets boring. prostitution is the oldest profession for woman and it really was the first woman's movement where she could earn her own and not be a 'wife'. Husband does mean owner. this discussion could just go round and round and will never have a conclusion.

chef's wife - I have not been to a lap - dancing club, have been to a Revue bar in Paris many moons ago where the strippers there were simply stripping, no gyrating of hips, or behaving overtly sexual etc. Most of crowd (British) came across as being really embarrassed and uncomfortable.

I was not saying either that lap-dancers get aroused, just that if done between a couple in a relationship that is fine because the signals would be very obvious- In a club the messages are mixed.

Interestingly - I also know someone thru' work who used to be a lap-dancer who no longer does it because of what she saw on a regular basis really shocked her and messed with her head.

cest - As I said, I couldn't read the Linden doc myself so it's interesting to see what you think of it. I guess what I'd like is for there to be some really good research undertaken in this area so that we know what we're talking about. I'd still object to lapdancing on a personal, moral basis, but if it could be shown to my satisfaction that it had no significant effect at all on levels of sexual violence, I'd accept that the issue was more finely balanced.

beaniesteve, I really think you've misread my posts. I argued quite clearly that I didn't think that 'ordinary' men would be prompted to commit a sexually violent act by attending a ldc; my argument is that, sadly, there is a sufficient minority of men who are predisposed towards sexual violence, and that attending ldcs might well triger those men into acting violently. There is really quite a lot of research (seperate from the Linden research) to back this up. It's not insulting to ordinary men at all.

Message withdrawn

cestlavie

What are your thoughts on the lap-dancers ?

Do you see them as women ? Are they a different type of woman? Would you be happy if your partner, daughter did it and other people knew that fact ?

If a demand is there, unfortunately all the regulation in the world is not going to stop the seedier side of things surely?

You may be going into these places with a level-headed view and be a throughly ok type, does it sit happy with you that you can make it easier for other men to have a certain view about women? I am sure you may even know I am talking about.

i don't see the relevance but i don't think i msturbated either of the nights i went to a strip club. what has this proved?
this is why i said earlier that i would shy away from discussing rape and rape statistics with a group of anonymous women as i feared offending others and not articulating myself properly.
if i question statistic and information then i fear i would be painted as excusing rapists when i have no wish to do so.
i mean the cynic in me would say that any statistics or information from the rape crisis centre will be skewed to their bias to increase funding and donations.
also they only recieve one side of the story in which case how can you claim with validity that a rape has taken place or that a man is a rapist without giving him a trial in front of his peers? surely these are all alleged rapes unless brought to a court of law?

it stems from ancient rome. the 'husband' owned land, home, servants, animals, wife. a woman was not deemed independent, going from her fathers home to her husbands. the dowery was essentially the price the father paid for his daughter to go to a good home.

Policy: I agree (on the flip side) that if it could be shown that there was a causal link between sexual violence and lap-dance clubs then I'd think there was a good case to ban them but I just haven't found anything despite having a look around a few times. Where's the other research you mention in your last post?

cest - it's the stuff quoted in this link. It's about porn, but I don't really see much difference between porn and lap-dancing (aside from the masturbatory/orgasm issue).

Of course it's from an anti-porn site, so is probably presenting a partial view.

It would be good if someone could research this, it just seems that things are escalating without someone going - Hang on a minute!

I take your point about stripping/dancing etc but maybe thats because in my mind there is a difference between me taking my clothes off to have a shower in front of DH and stripping/dancing as part of our sex life!!