To ask my ex for more money, or use the CMS

[Florizelloid]

My Ex an I divorced a few years ago. He agreed to an amount that we calculated using the CMS calculator, and in the divorce agreement he said he was to send me his P60 and three months payslips every year.
He earns quite a lot more than I do, and it is quite a nice sum of money to have every month.
However, that amount is still the same as what we agreed to a few years ago, and he hasn't yet sent me a single payslip or P60. I had avoided asking for them as I didn't want to cause a conflict, however I finally got the courage to ask him for it yesterday.
He is refusing, I am not sure why, he said it is because it will give me his NI number and UTR number. He did send me a wage statement from his employer, which would indicate (using the CMS calculator) that with our current arrangement he is underpaying me by a fair bit. When I pointed this out, he first asked for a 50:50 child care split. I pointed out that this wouldn't work with his job (he commutes several days a week and often has evening meetings) he said he could make it work. Then he said that I didn't need any more, as looking after the children wasn't getting any more expensive.
He also said that if he got promoted and his pay doubles, then it wouldn't be fair for him to pay any more to me.

I can live fine on what he is giving me together with my full time wage, it just irks me that he isn't meeting the terms of our agreement, and every time I raise the question of maintenance he starts to demand more time with the kids. I find his attitude really upsetting, but I also wonder if I am being greedy, especially when the kids come back after a weekend with him asking what their Daddy has to pay child maintenance for.

I am also getting sick with stress, at work as well as trying to deal with him, and help my daughter who is going through puberty, coping with suspected Autism/ADHD, and has started some still thankfully very minor self-harming, and suicide threats. With all this I am wondering how much longer I can keep up my full time hours. I had some time off with this earlier in the year, but it is getting worse again.

I have said that I will contact the CMS if he doesn't start to send his P60s and wage slips as he agreed, but he regards this very much as the nuclear option. I don't want to cause more conflict, and I don't want to get in to a massive argument about the arrangements for the kids, and I really don't want to have to talk to my lawyer again, so am I being unreasonable to say this?

100% agree with this.
He doesn't want 50/50. Not a chance you will end up in court for that. Sometimes you just have to call their bluff.
Do CMS and don't get into any arguments about it. If he tries, stay neutral and keep it to childcare arrangements.
He's broken an agreement. You now have no faith in the information he provides you, therefore you go down the formal route of CMS. That's his decision to make -if he provides the documents, you can come to an outside arrangement. He can even erase his personal details (although we know that's not the reason he's withholding).
Very best of luck OP.

But we really don’t know this. Fair enough if nothing was changing then I’d agree he probably wouldn’t challenge 50/50 now. But she’s changing the status quo and asking for more money - money can really motivate people.

For the record I really hope OP gets what’s she’s owed, I just think she’s needs to be aware this could happen.

Why do you care what he thinks? Do it.

It sounds like you want more in order to be able to cut your hours; it’s definitely not right that he should subsidise you. You have to work full time it’s not an option to cut hours & expect him to cover shortfall. He offered 50:50 which would benefit you tremendously so take it up on it & get it agreed formally.

Fuck him
Go to cms and get them to take it at souce. They'll take an additional 20% for doing so so it's his own fault for being greedy.
Hes only offered 50.50 now so he can keep the money. Amazing how many absent fathers offer to do this when they decide they don't want to lose any cash anymore.

It really makes me sad that the only time he asks for more time with the children is when I raise the question of child maintenance. My kids deserve better.

Don't be sad, be angry. He is who he is and you can't change him. However, don't let that rob your children of the financial support they are entitled too. Go to the CMS and get your children what they should be receiving financially from their father. It is about the only thing you can do for the positive here.

I don't want him to subsidise me, I just want to be able to offer the kids a reasonable life. He takes them on holiday to the Caribbean, takes them out to eat in all the best restaurants, shops at Waitrose, buys a detached house with 4 bedrooms and three bathrooms in a nice part of town, and the kids complain when I can only manage a semi detached house with very small bedrooms and one bathroom, give them the Aldi versions of things and take them camping in a tent in Cornwall. I can just about make ends meet with the maintenance and my full time salary. I'm not as badly off as many, but the contrast is jarring.
He doesn't really want the kids more and there's no way he could cope. As it is I have to manage contact around his hours, if he has to be at a meeting when he would normally have the kids then I work around him.

As others have said, in his case I don't believe he would actually go any further than the empty threats he has already showered me with in the past. Every time I raised the question of maintenance since we broke up, he would threaten me with taking the kids away from me. At the beginning he totally refused, and only when I brought in the CMS did he start complying.

Thanks for this, made me laugh. He hasn't got a second Mrs Livebetter, clearly I was the only one foolish enough to put him with him.

Go through CMS, and if he does repatriate by asking for the kids more you can demonstrate that the only times he asks to see them more is as a retaliation for asking for more money and not because he wants to.

If all these conversations are in writing and his refusal to pay you what you are reasonably entitled to is documented then he will really struggle to argue anything else.

I’d let him have 50:50. It’s not your place to decide whether it will work for him, that’s for him to figure out. Saying no gives him the “she only wants the money” and “she won’t let me see my kids more” excuses.

however if he does take you up on it you will lose what CMS you do get, so make sure you can survive for a few months while he gives it a go. Keep a diary.

I think that you need to text him “These discussions are upsetting for me, and for the children so I’m going to stop having them. You can comply with the agreement which we made, or go through cms whichever you prefer.”

If he asks to have the kids more offer him an extra night as a trial - ideally one tacked onto his time when you know he’ll be working.

If the kids ask why daddy has to pay child maintenance tell them that it’s the law.

especially when the kids come back after a weekend with him asking what their Daddy has to pay child maintenance for.

This for me would mean CMS until they are adults.

I wouldn't discuss or negotiate with someone who felt it appropriate to involve the children in that way.

I'd message him and say he has until the end of the week to comply with the agreement of payslips and P60 and agree a revised amount or you will contact CMS.

Also, stop providing contact outside the agreed times/date. If he's unavailable that's on him. Does he give you the same flexibility?

I'd say the fact that you regularly have to accomodate his work schedule (and I assume you have proof of thi sin the form of emails/text message), means it's very unlikely that i fhe tok you to court they'd agree that he should get more time.

I'd tell him if he won't pay more you're going through CMS. Then do it. And if he DOES start saying he wants more time, wait for HIM to organise the mediation and court. You don't have to do anything. If he does actually do it - fairly unlikely - you can then prove that he cant facilitate additional contact and that he only wants it to reduce CMS.

However, one very irritating reality is that if you do this, it could further damage the coparenting relationship so you will have to weigh up how it works currently vs being worse after this.

I have now applied for CMS. I last did this a few months after we separated, as I was really struggling financially, and he was refusing to pay any maintenance at all. When I spoke to my lawyer then, that is what she told me to do. He was utterly furious then, we were at a school sports day, and he was black with rage, saying I'd spoiled everything. I had brought two chairs, one for him and he refused to sit in it, preferring the grass.
After I started this last week, he has unsubscribed from the family calendar I had been maintaining, setting up his own, I think as some sort of weird petty mischief.As he never paid it much attention anyway, relying on me to organise parents evening etc it won't make any difference to me.
From memory of the last time I did this, I can withdraw it at any time, should he change his mind. He really hated the hassle they gave him, and to be fair, it did sound like quite a lot of hassle. I had agreed in our divorce agreement that I wouldn't use the CMS, but that was in the same paragraph where he agreed to send me P60s and three wage slips every year, so he broke it first. It is so upsetting trying to deal with him directly, and thankfully they can do that for me.

I would be inclined to stop organising FOR him anyway. Assuming he gets school notifications and you are putting things in the calendar you agreed to use, you do not need to do any additional work to remind him of date.

Obviously, this works less well in a situation where you NEED him to turn up, but as part of your preparation for how littl ehe actually does should be take you to court... it would be helpful.

Well done @Florizelloid . Stop taking chairs for him, stop being kind and accommodating. If he has a separate calendar - good for him, but you don't need to use it. If he freaks out, don't engage, don't justify yourself, don't explain. You have passed the responsibility for financial calculations over to the CMS, as they are the experts. End of conversation. You don't need to respond or oblige him in any way at all. He is going to be an arse regardless!

Otoh - he pays now and he pays regularly which isn't always the case as many sad stories on here show.
Of the amount you get what would be the % increase you get - how would it compare to what cms would charge you?
He would go for 50/50 - how much would fighting that in courts cost you and what would the detrimental effect be on the kids if its awarded.
I know it's all not fair - but take a pragmatic Dispassionate look at it all.

You can expect him to be a bellend as he realises he’s lost control of you and his tactics to bring you back under his control ramp up. At some point though he should realise your boundaries are here to stay and you’re enjoying the peace of not having to manage a man child and trying to persuade him to contribute fairly to the costs associated with you raising his children.

Will the cms pay you more than your already getting or less?

So an update. I applied to the CMS. He had a massive go at me over text. Then told the kids that I was a terrible person who was trying to get as much money as I could out of him. This was during the week. He then says we should meet up over coffee to talk things over. For this I read 'bully me in to doing what he wants', as he has been via text. So I replied that I didn't want to meet up with him as he had responded 'rather unfortunately' to my request to do what he'd actually agreed to do in the divorce agreement. This upset him, and was unfortunately just before he was doing a party for my youngest. He lives closer to where my son goes to school, and has a bigger house, so DS wanted it there, and I am totally chuffed accept these arguments. anyway he apparently started crying, and told my daughter what was wrong.. so I got a massive series of venomous texts from her, as well as him. She ended by asking me why I'd done it today?.. To which the only response I could make was that this was not really anything to do with her, it was between me and her Daddy, and anyway it was last week.
DD (13) appears to have relented at that, though there were still barbed comments at the dinner table last night. DS ( A very young 11) also very upset, says he doesn't know which parent to trust, says that the divorce settlement should have included some other things.. also says that Daddy only signed the divorce agreement because he was scared of me! I try to explain that he doesn't need to worry too much about that, and that Mummy and Daddy will sort it out. When I mentioned his favourite comic, he forgot about it and started talking incessantly about the comic. Phew.
All horrendously awkward. Anyway the CMS got back to me today, and they say that he owes me more than half again as much as he was paying. TBH I'd probably accept less, just if he was (less of a dick) honest about it, and gave me the P60 and pay slips as agreed.

I'd not have divorced him if he wasn't such an arsehole, but still it really rankles the way he's using the kids to hurt me, because it hurts them more than it hurts me.

I am sorry he is using the DC to punish you. It's a very difficult situation. Is he consistent and good with them or will they, in time, come to see him for what he is?

Of course, part of the problem is the deep seated belief by many men who are otherwise "good men" that any sort of financial sacrifice they have to make for their DC is "unfair". I know that DH has had a few sharp conversations with friends when they've been ranting about their ex or a friend's ex "taking all their money". And that can be difficult to square with the DC who, of course, see a loving father doing his best.

I think you're right not to get into a big argument about it with your DC but I do think that trying to ignore it or dismiss it won't help either. You need to think about what an appropriate middle ground could be. I think this will depend on you and the children but perhaps something like, "Unfortunately, Daddy doesn't think he needs to pay as much as the government say is necessary for parents who don't live with their children. But he's wrong and of course, the authorities have rules and guidelines on this that he has to comply with."

Or you could take a lighthearted approach, "what? Scared of little ol' me? What did he think I was going to do? Chase him in the street in my dressing gown? hahaha" or some variation.

Stay strong @Florizelloid my vile ex-H did exactly the same and it was so painful and upsetting. I think I mentioned he even got the equally vile 2nd Mrs Livebetter to send me a long venomous email too.

The DC used to get so upset as they hated any involvement in what they saw as parent issues. Hard as it was, I always played the long game and refused to slag off their utter wanker of a father and sure enough they now see all his shit fuckery for exactly what it is and think he is a wanker all by themselves.

You carry on with your DC exactly as you are, be their safe and consistent parent. They will love and respect you for it in the end, I promise.

Don't ever be sorry you divorced him either. One day in the not too distant future, your future self will be so glad of all that you did to protect yourself and your children.