Teacher showing photos to kids of victorian dead children - slightly disturbing

[whyiwonderwhy]

I am finding this so disturbing I can't sleep! However I might be being oversensitive, who knows. It is the "but - WHY?" bit which is bothering me most.

The lesson was about the industrial revolution, and the subject of photography came up, 2 of the earliest photos were shown to the class (13-14yo) and then....I wish I could say the teacher showed photos of some of the extraordinary engineering inventions of the day, or of busy streets, or China, or something wonderful and extraordinary...but no, the teacher showed 10 photos of dead children and talked about how the Victorians would photograph dead children as though they were still alive, with the rest of the family, in a commemorative way. I have seen some in the past (I didn't learn about it at school however) and they are moving and tragic and disturbing. Nothing else, just these photos.

Just wondering...why? why would the teacher do this? Any ideas?

This teacher has form by the way. A lot of it. But this has for some reason blindsided me.

Spinning Jenny and the Industrial Revolution still give me nightmares.

Presumably they have pictures of eg Spinning Jenny in their text books. I find it hard to believe this wouldn’t have already been shown as an image in some form.

The Victorian photographs are interesting and you can’t know what context they were shown in, assuming you weren’t in the classroom.

I would be concerned if these were being shown to young primary school children, but not this age group.

It might help if you explain the backstory and why you can’t simply ask about the photographs. We don’t know the context but I’d be more concerned if my DC was at a school where I didn’t feel able to speak to a teacher, query things or voice concerns.

@whyiwonderwhy
You and your husband sound like amazing teachers.
My Latin teacher was an ex-priest, who left the church for a woman in another country.
Once they got settled in the US, she left him. All she wanted was US citizenship.
I think he must be the kindest person I’ve ever had the privilege of knowing.
And he also made learning fun.
Amo amas amat ❤️

I am finding this so disturbing I can't sleep! However I might be being oversensitive, who knows. It is the "but - WHY?" bit which is bothering me most.

Yeah, you are being massively over sensitive and need to move into the real world.

@whyiwonderwhy So its creeped you out, and therefore you dont like it being taught to your teenagers?

I hate this phrase but in this case it works, its a "you" problem.

Photography is actually one of the most interesting and world-changing technological inventions of that period, and post mortem photography is a fascinating and relevant part of nineteenth century culture. Through it students can learn all sorts of things about the differences between modern and past cultures, including Victorian mourning culture, the spread of technological innovations like photography (which had the fastest global uptake of any visual technology ever), and so on. It’s a window into past customs that shows how the world was - especially in relation to domestic, children and family cultures of the period, which were often left out of the “great men and their machines” type of traditional history.

It’s also a damn sight more interesting as a lesson than Brunel or Disraeli or whatever. I teach postmortem photography to visual arts degree students studying that period, and I wish my history teachers had done more of that kind of cultural history at school rather than endless Tudor taxation acts, to be honest.

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During the industrial revolution death was much more of a fact of life than today. Death and mourning customs are a part of that and there was a rapid growth in death related industries. For the Victorians death customs expanded to incorporate the new technology of photography. So it was an industry that grew out of death

In the previous Georgian/Regency times mourning jewellery was popular with a whole industry evolving around Whitby to supply the manufacturers of mourning jewellery with jet stones. Many pieces such as rings and brooches etc featured intricate designs that were made with the hair of the deceased.

There were other death related industries that grew up - penny burial policies for example where insurance men came to your house and collected a penny each week on policies to pay for the burial of family members. It was the way for working class people to be able to afford to have a proper burial for family members. My grandparents used such a policy in the 1930s when their son died aged 2 of bronchitis.

You sound victorian yourself. Have you come over with vapours from shock. Teen years are going to be a shock for you.

DreamTheMoors · Today 01:41

Actually, Dreamy, it was I, Polly, who taught them Latin, and made them love it. DH, though not a trained teacher, but a Royal Navy gunnery expert, was a teacher to his very soul. Adored kids. Got through to young kids in a manner I have rarely seen, with his "reality learning". I wrote a course on teaching Latin through games and kinaesthetic activities...all great, provided the teacher has passion. So many of my ex-pupils went on to Public School, passionate about Classics. Latin should not be fusty and boring - it's fun and fascinating.

Mine included a lot of WWII and more recent photos of the horrible things that happen in conflicts. I actually think the trend to protect our precious snowflakes from anything triggering rather than the other direction. I’m 40 so dunno how old you are but it’s pretty weird you didn’t have any WWII photos at least. I’m not sure a fact about 10 million people dying really gets the point across in the same way as a photo does.

There's also important city and transportation design connected with the way Death was treated - the London Necropolis - which could be tied into a trip to one of the major cemeteries, infant mortality (leading into statistics), improvements in public health, housing, social care, medicine, could be linked to their English Literature text (Jekyll & Hyde, Dickens, Frankenstein), Christian eschatology, Law, comparative religion for things such as cremation; this could quite easily become a very effectively integrated curriculum, starting off from the fact that people died and people took photographs of them.

It's important for them to learn that it wasn't all Brunel, Box Tunnel and the Crystal Palace.

The republic of suffering is excellent!

Even on quite a superficial level, it is obvious to teach child labour to youngsters if you’re covering the Industrial Revolution, and it is hard to cover Victorian child labour without at least touching on child welfare and child mortality.

Photos like this were often the only time a family would have a photo taken.

It wasn’t that unusual and whilst it now seems creepy it’s a good way of visually explaining how times and attitudes have changed.

@whyiwonderwhy I think the Victorian death photos are quite sweet actually- there is nothing there that is gruesome, especially for year 9. I also don't see how it's any worse than year 3's who learn about the Egyptians and the embalming process for mummies, my 7 year old could tell me about the post death organ removal in detail! And any museums we visit invariable have a skeleton or two, but the kids just find it interesting. Honestly I think it's kind of healthy to not make (natural) death too much of a taboo subject, lots of those pupils will lose family members during childhood and might need help processing it.

This teacher has form by the way. A lot of it.

You still haven't explained what you mean by this.

No you’re wrong. I’m 68 and I can remember being shown pictures of the holocaust.
starving men and women looking like skeletons, and hundreds of dead bodies piled up on top of each other.
I was also in year 9 at the time and it affected me badly.
I remember telling my parents about what we had learned and was surprised that of course they already knew about it.
I couldn’t believe that people could do this to other human beings and couldn’t get it out of my head for months.
I doubt that seeing pictures of posed dead children would have had such an impact on me.

This

I wish people would stop saying times have changed and it's creepy now. There will be people reading this whose post-mortem photos of their baby are all they have. It is commonly done now and every large hospital I've worked in has had a specialised photographer who does it.

Absolutely, this is a really relevant and interesting part of what they are learning. The images aren't particularly disturbing or anything, but it is an interesting reflection as to the values of society at the time and of course the very significant development of cameras and photography. I really can't understand why you are unhappy in any way about it.

What is disturbing about an open cask? Unless there's some dreadful mutilation/damage to the body, why not?

Having studied the Industrial Revolution at school in history I would say it’s possibly the dullest subject ever. I wish my teacher had showed us pictures of interesting social history like this not the ruddy spinning jenny.

Just a few thoughts.

I think this would be a really great way to engage kids that age with the subject of infant mortality, public health etc - massive issues as the industrialisation of Britain took off

Also you only have your DC’s version of this. There’s probably more context.

You / they clearly have had issues with this teacher beforehand. Could this be clouding your judgement?

Anyway, glad the thread’s been cathartic for you and you have Slept like a log.

I'm more astonished that a y9 kid accurately described a whole lesson to you.