Teacher showing photos to kids of victorian dead children - slightly disturbing

[whyiwonderwhy]

I am finding this so disturbing I can't sleep! However I might be being oversensitive, who knows. It is the "but - WHY?" bit which is bothering me most.

The lesson was about the industrial revolution, and the subject of photography came up, 2 of the earliest photos were shown to the class (13-14yo) and then....I wish I could say the teacher showed photos of some of the extraordinary engineering inventions of the day, or of busy streets, or China, or something wonderful and extraordinary...but no, the teacher showed 10 photos of dead children and talked about how the Victorians would photograph dead children as though they were still alive, with the rest of the family, in a commemorative way. I have seen some in the past (I didn't learn about it at school however) and they are moving and tragic and disturbing. Nothing else, just these photos.

Just wondering...why? why would the teacher do this? Any ideas?

This teacher has form by the way. A lot of it. But this has for some reason blindsided me.

We have a Paris monument topic in year 8. It includes the Catacombs and a YouTube video which describes the dead bodies falling on the street when the wall of a cemetery collapsed. It also contains pictures of the skulls (some have obvious holes, whether as cause of death or from being moved) and one video even describes how the locals would scrape off the ’wax’ which grew on dead bodies to use in the creation of candles, very desperate times. Cultural knowledge!

Here is a sensible and reputable debunking of most of the claimed 'Victorian death photos'. Worth a read. It is not 'part of social history ' as some up-thread are claiming - or if it is, it's primarily about how misinformation spreads in the age of mass media.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/victorian-post-mortem-photographs

to show those images? ok. To ONLY show those images? a missed opportunity.

Find me some contemporary evidence that this is what they did, as opposed to someone online claiming that a particular sitter in a photograph is dead.

And several hospitals have cold cots, don’t they, so parents can hold their baby? I have no idea if I’d want that, but I absolutely empathise and don’t think it’s weird.

A friend of mine died and her dc were told they could say goodbye in the morgue. One did, one didn’t. The one who did said she’d kissed her mum’s cheek and it was cold (obviously, she’d been kept in the refrigerated drawer). She was year 8 at the time.

It’s very subjective, I think some parents would not allow this. It used to be quite common to have bodies laid in the church before the funeral ceremony or at home, open coffin, I kissed my dead aunt’s face, she died when I was about ten, I was close to her. Bit odd but didn’t cause me to lose sleep. Again, it’s very subjective, I imagine most parents these days might avoid this.

That would upset me to see-as a child and an adult. I think it’s different telling them about it to actually showing them. I wouldn’t be happy about this either.

And me.

I always thought my own DM was a bit pushy when it came to school but there’s no way she’d have any idea about what I saw in a specific Yr 9 history class, what I was supposed to have seen instead and what all my class mates thought of it.

Anyway, I’m in my thirties now and distinctly remember a primary school trip to the local church graveyard to read the dates on graves and identify any epidemics that may have hit the village. Social history can be grim, but it’s more engaging for most kids than photos of a large bridge.

Meh.The 13/14 yr olds i t.a for saw pics of hangings the other day.Its part of history and it was relevant to the subject matter.

i’ve not read the while thread. Not sure if OP will be going back after replying constantly last night and then saying good night.

Firstly, the teacher is doing a fantastic job of your child is coming home from school and discussing the topic. Ask your daughter what was the aim of the other lessons yesterday. Probably get a shrug.

Secondly, it sounds like the teacher was discussing social history regarding the Industrial Revolution. Probably did show some kids in the mills or begging on the streets of London. But they’re the working class, how do you depict the lower middle class of that century?

Photographs were a real luxury. Sure the upper classes probably had photos taken regularly. But the lower middle classes would have only had them taken for real special occasions. Unfortunately one of those occasions may have been when a young child died.

I think I’ve seen a photo with mum, dad and three dead children. Poor parents. Think back then that the other alive children would have participated in ‘wakes’ and been around death.

It’s not too dissimilar to parents now taking photographs of their babies who are born sleeping. I have a friend who used to post every year of her baby who was born sleeping.

But, it’s a way for the teacher to peek the kids interest. Yes they could have shown a bit of Oliver the twist but most kids would have already had that stereotype/knowledge of that era. Most kids have a Victorian dress up day in primary school. I guess she could have shown pictures of the diseases/illnesses/medication treatments to peak the kids interests? I definitely remember a lesson in primary school on historical dentistry.

I think this is right, there needs to be a balance struck.

There is a jarring mismatch between some styles of parenting and allowing early access to tech smartphone, iPad etc. DC then have the worst of all worlds, internet at their fingertips and lack of life skills or sense. They are ill equipped emotionally to process things.

The original children’s fairy tales could be quite gruesome in parts to help process difficult human ideas and emotions through magical stories, then came the sanitised versions.

Some of the old education films were quiet (edited to say quite scary not quiet!) . They were possibly too effective when you are left with a life long fear of matches!

The abortion film seems like gruesome propaganda rather than education, I’m glad I didn’t see it. The birth video mentioned upthread was eye opening enough.

I’m Irish and we have wakes with an open coffin. It’s not unusual for children to come pay their respects. It’s not disturbing it teaches that dying is a part of life. Our wake culture is one of the things we do well here. The whole community comes to pay their respects and support the bereaved

No it didn't occur to me as I haven't seen a picture of the Pope's body this week (just a tiny bit of what I am hoping was his hand on the BBC!). And I think that's unnecessarily pedantic. Doesn't change my opinion that it might have been kind to give them a heads up even if a few of them saw the Pope lying in State. And maybe this teacher did?

surprised you didn't know about it https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36389581

There has also been another thread on MN defending many people taking photos of the dead pope as it can be cultural, although the Vatican did end up asking people not to take photos. So could have been an interesting discussion in class, has society really changed.

I actually think this fits well into the Industrial Revolution. child mortality was a big part of that of the time from disease and death in the factories. There was a big amount of trauma for families. They expected to have children die in those times. Seeing the photos in the context of how things were changing and the technological improvements so they could have memories of their departed children and family members is actually very interesting. No subject is isolated

It's a really good example of an invention (the camera/photography) changing society quickly and profoundly. The Victorian death customs/rituals is a very interesting subject anyway - I researched the topic for part of my Masters. I could have happily continued researching.

It's relevant to the lesson though......he wasn't just being macabre.......unlike my old biology teacher who used to like whipping out the fetuses he kept in bottles and plonking them on the table. He got a firm telling off after traumatising a Spanish language student but still kept them on his shelves so they'd catch you off guard when you went in the cupboard (( He was however an amazing teacher. We all loved him dearly ))

The dd was probably exaggerating that the entire lesson consisted of looking at post mortem photos.

That's not contemporary evidence! That's a rather shoddy article by a modern journalist with some pictures of people for whom there's no evidence they're dead at all, and some actual postmortem pictures, eg the child on the bier, who is not posed as if living.

Contemporary evidence would be a treatiae on postmortem photography detailing how to get the best results; an advert from a photographer saying 'Get your dead kids photographed by us!' or a letter between relatives describing how a family member died and was posed and photographed after death.

The treatises on photography that do exist, describe using the (rather flimsy) posture stands to assist in keeping a live subject still.
There is an astonishing dearth of advertising of death photography, when you consider the extensive advertising surrounding other death customs, which were highly comercialised. See, for example, necropolises.

I'm sure the kids were also shown the extraordinary feats of the industrial revolution. I doubt the entire topic focused on Victorian post mortem photography, perhaps this was just one interesting facet of it to engage the children. Who knows? Perhaps discuss with the teacher so you have full knowledge and context?

YABVU

No wonder we have a generation of pansy arses if a 14yo can’t cope with a picture of a corpse - which BTW just looks like someone asleep upright.

I wouldn’t be bothered at my 8yo being shown that, let alone a 14yo. It’s a fascinating part of history.

However do you manage when they’re taught about the Holocaust?

I can't sleep! Can I see some of your wonderful pictures of Victorian engineering?

This.
13 - 14 years old? I thought you were going to say 5 or 6 or something, then maybe you'd have a point!
History can sometimes be gruesome, you can't just "rainbow and sunshines" gloss over it and you never should. Otherwise you never learn from it.

Ex-history teacher here. They'll be teaching the Holocaust soon, assuming the school has taken a chronological approach to the curriculum, so best to prepare yourself if you find the content of this lesson disturbing.