Discussion about Jesus’s death which now encompasses creationism and the second coming. Thread 2

[ZoggyStirdust]

Continues from here if anyone wants to

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5318577-to-not-understand-why-christians-think-jesus-died-for-our-sins?page=40&reply=143772264

My DS and I had a fundamentalist Christian extremist tell him that he wouldn't need his wheelchair if only he believed. We were very polite to her. Part of me wanted to punch her in the face and stamp on her, but she would not have known it. I'm better than that (yes, I know the sin is in the thought and not the deed, and I do not care). The arrogance, the presumption - astonishing.

I am grateful for the life I have - the one life, that is. I've had some really tough times in my life and never once felt the need for a deity. When I die, my component parts - molecules, energy - will return to be part of the universe. That's enough eternity for me.

If I told you about amazing healing miracles I'd heard about, or lesser healings seen or ministered by myself, you would not accept my word would you?

I posted names of some people who explain the Bible very well. Ian Andrews is an English guy who I have met and I know friends of his. He is very down to earth and credible. His American friend James Maloney is more outgoing. They both have amazing healing ministries. Stuff happens.

What proof of a healing might you accept? A church setting up video cameras, with independent witnesses to testify that it wasn't faked? With prior written consent from all those who may go forward for prayer of course. Hospital consultants providing reports of metal surgical implants or cancerous masses that were present but don't now appear in X rays and they can't explain why?

People write books, or post podcasts, including such healings. You can find some if you're interested. If you want a peer reviewed medical journal paper saying a certain hospital keeps getting patients coming back with missing implants or tumours, or new hip joints or lungs, then - sorry - no professionals are going to trash their careers by doing that in a cynical, sceptical world.

I can believe that in some rare cases medical conditions etc can improve etc because the human body is incredibly complex and not fully understood. Ascribing such occurrences to divine intervention just means it's inexplicable but we don't like the inexplicable so we construct a narrative to suit our beliefs.

I have experienced the unexplained. I believe there are forces as yet beyond our Ken.

What I refuse to do is claim they are of divine or intentional origin or dependent on my beliefs, because I don't know. Nor do I expect anyone else to believe me, nor do I make my interactions with people conditional on their believing me, nor do I think or hope for them to be punished for not sharing my beliefs or not believing in my experiences. I don't believe I am duty bound to convince people of my experiences, nor tell them they are condemned if they don't, because I can't explain them.

@Parker231

Atheism refers solely to the non-belief in deities, so someone can be an atheist and believe in an afterlife of some kind. Many atheists don't believe in an afterlife either, of course, but I've met and known atheists who do believe in a spirit realm/continued existence after physical death. Obviously they don't see this afterlife in terms of 'Heaven' and 'Hell', but, nor do I (and I'm a theist.)

I find chaos magic interesting, although it's not my primary approach. But I definitely want to explore more of it.

I know the 'psychological model' of magic is popular within chaos circles (although not all chaos mages see it that way.) Personally, I do believe that deities, and other spirit entities of all kinds exist, as well as creatures from folklore (if you're spent much time in pagan circles, you'll see people talking about belief in/engaging with fairies, etc, and I know people who include interactions with fairies in their personal practices.)

I don’t believe in any afterlife - it’s impossible regardless of what people want to kid themselves with.

i don’t need a god or religion to be a good person - I am not a sinner (horrible phrase). Can’t be threatened with something which doesn’t exist.

@Parker231

Yes, I understand that - I just mean that atheists can (and do) believe in an afterlife, because atheism refers only to the non-belief in deities.

I don't need the gods or religion to be a good person either. I believe all deities exist and am part of a religion (pagan polytheism) - but paganism doesn't come with a set list of rules or moral instructions, so my personal morals and ethics have been developed entirely separately from my religion.

In any case, pagan polytheism doesn't threaten non-believers.

I'm very much of the "as above, so below" school of thought, which of course can be interpreted in a sort of "manifestation" way, but it's way more complicated and subtle than the modern grifters make out, and when I read "The Secret" I nearly launched it through a window at the part where it implied victims of crime, sickness and even collective horrors had "attracted" such things by not thinking positively enough.

I'm interested in Jung and the concept of synchronicity and the collective subconscious, archetypes etc. Also quantum physics, hyperdimensions, fractality. So in terms of deities and entities encountered, especially in altered states of consciousness I'm open to the idea they do exist in forms we don't fully understand.

I enjoy a channel on YouTube - Esoterica with Justin Sledge as he draws on so much and explores all sorts of occult stuff.

Mainstream religion is designed to separate us from the occult, and scare us away from spirituality. All of the Gods may be the one true God collectively but the trickster archetype exists for good reason. Sometimes I'm the Fool, sometimes the Magician, I've experienced the Tower (too often!). Currently in the Hanged Man phase with Death around me, and hoping for the Sun.

It's complicated. But I'm far more comforted by the unknown than the constraints of a God who is capricious, vain and apparently orchestrated misogyny just for fun.

https://www.uwa.edu.au/study/-/media/Faculties/Science/Docs/Evidence-for-the-Big-Bang.pdf

Such an awesome subject. Should be compulsory reading.

The Big Bang and the cosmos in general is my definition of magick.....

Science is awesome 🤩

"But I'm far more comforted by the unknown than the constraints of a God who is capricious, vain and apparently orchestrated misogyny just for fun."

@MistressoftheDarkSide

I think that God (Jehovah) exists, of course, but as I see it (being a polytheist) he is merely one of many, and is not a deity I feel the desire to turn my attention towards. The Celtic Gods and Goddesses are the ones that interest me the most at the moment - particularly Manannan Mac Lir. Though lately the deity I've been interacting with the most has been Hekate, from the Greek pantheon.

I also find the idea of alternate realities/parallel dimensions very interesting, and that is easily transposed from a theory of physics into the workings of magic and the occult. Some occultists who take on the view that there are numerous timelines/dimensions/realities utilise this in their magical workings, shifting timelines, etc. I'm reminded of the time a sorcerer I'm acquainted with spoke about how he used magic to "cancel" the suicide of his then girlfriend - he said that the result of his working was that the timeline shifted back to its previous state, and the new branching of the timeline kept her alive.

And alot of science looked like magick until we unpicked it....

That's really interesting. Time is a fascinating concept, and I believe it can shift / be manipulated, although it's impossible to prove.

I've had several experiences where things were planned, and supposed to happen, but I just "knew" they wouldn't. I couldn't "see" or visualise them coming to fruition, even though there was absolutely nothing to indicate failure until totally left field things occurred. I had no active part in the change, nor any investment either way, so I don't think it was me lol.

As to deities, I am fascinated by them. I was once "followed around" by the Black Madonna during a period of crisis. She kept popping up even though I had no previous concept of her. I've also had very weird experiences around the Cathars.

I might just start properly practising again..... it's been a while....

Slightly amusing that a thread about God / Jesus has firmly turned me back to other paths.....

I just have to reply to this.

There are times I have had small wobbles, things I need to sit and think about and read the Bible about or get advice from a pastor. However I have never had a 'this can't be true at all' moment. I know why that is. It's because God sent Jesus to Earth, to live amongst his people, a real God living amongst us for a short time. I only have to think of Him and His sacrifice for all of us, to read of his life and miracles, to see the accounts of men and women who followed Him often to very unpleasant deaths because they believed and wouldn't renounce their faith - centuries of people. I am filled with awe at this and feel unworthy to follow in their footsteps.

I most certainly don't have to 'keep on top of my faith' as if by missing a day reading the Bible or talking to God I might fall off the precipice into disbelief. I went many years apostate and have returned with my faith burning more brightly than ever. I am not following Christ to 'get into Heaven'. I am following Christ wherever He leads because He had redeemed me. Nothing can tear me from His hands. I won't wake up one morning to a message from God telling me I haven't made the cut to go to Heaven, God simply doesn't act in that way. He does not go back on His promises.

I was answering a specific question about whether living a Christian life was worthwhile if there were no promise of Heaven afterwards. In that context my reply makes sense. I meant that the pursuit of the Christian religion would be meaningless had Christ not been resurrected. It's all about Heaven and preparation for it. Take Heaven out of it and Christianity loses its purpose.

Out of context then yes, I suppose you could think I meant life itself would be meaningless. I didn't say or imply that but thank you, I'll try to mind my wording in future!

And where do you think those ideas about the right things as a good human being came from? Out of air? No. What you consider the right thing to do is based in e.g. the distillation of ethical discussions and investigations carried out by Christians, and before them by Hellenistic pagans, who mainly saw Apollo as the god that should be worshipped. Religion is in the DNA of humans and if we decide, as we may, that we are eschewing them then we find something else to find the gap. I think it was G K Chesterton who said that people who choose not to believe in religions don't believe nothing, they believe anything, hence our new religion of transgenderism.

What a stupid woman. I am sorry that you met such a crap example of Christianity. Religion and belief say no such thing at all. She ought to go and read her Bible, properly.

Agreed. But I think the most likely explanation of improving condition / miraculous recovery is also the simplest. The condition was misdiagnosed in the first place. Doctors make mistakes, the medical ‘industry’ is arrogant and mistakes are covered up, or found out / admitted too either too late or not at all. Why attribute to some imaginary power what is easily explainable by looking at the obvious. It would be interesting to look at the survival rate for chronic illnesses, and compare survival rates for those that are religious and those that aren’t…

Wow
so before organised religion people never knew right from wrong, it’s all down to religion? That’s pretty arrogant

and to say atheists are so gullible they will believe anything? That’s arrogant and offensive

I believe in a good society. You can be a good Christian and a bad non believer and vice versa. Being religious doesn’t mean you automatically are a good person or a rule follower of the laws of the country.

Huh? Humans are naturally social animals - our ability to live together (generally) peacefully predates religion.

Evolutionary cooperation is a thing - we have always survived by living in groups.

Cooperation, trust and empathy were always crucial survival skills allowing for things like hunting together, raising children and sharing resources. Groups where people murdered/ attacked/ stole from each other wouldn’t last long…

Also, studies on babies and even primates show that basic moral instincts like fairness, empathy, and helping others are wired into us biologically, not taught by religion. Unless chimps are Christian and we don’t realise!

As societies grew, they developed laws to manage behavior. These aren’t plucked from religion alone, they’re based on what works to keep a group stable and prevent absolute chaos. That’s another reason why the general ‘rules’ are the same across the globe, not just in Christian countries.

Religions like christianity absolutely helped codify these social ‘rules’ ("don’t murder," "don’t steal” etc.) but those rules existed because they were necessary for humans to successfully function as a society.

Exactly! Communities and civilisations organised themselves millennia before organised religion came on the scene. And people managed to do the right thing, because looking after those around us is in our dna. Organised religion codified it as a means of control and raising funds.

For some reason there is a subset of believers in god who are offended that not everyone agrees, and rather than accept that we are all different take it as a personal affront. Are they insecure? Misguided? Frightened? Who knows.

But it’s interesting to reflect that organised religions have built up enormous wealth, and in some cases benefit from enormous tax breaks. You would think that they could step in and use some of their resources (£23 billion in the case of the Church of England who do at least disclose it, and an estimated £100 to £200 billion world wide for the Catholic Church that does not disclose it) to support communities, or indeed pay tax like the rest of us to pay their way. Instead, each year their wealth just grows. To what ends? They exist now just to protect and grow wealth.

The idea is to understand that one is in a state of sin. Without that understanding then the offer looks conditional. Once you understand what a state of sin means, that you have fallen short of what humanity can be, then the offer is unconditional.

I am not sure what criteria you think God requires of you.

Please define a state of sin?