to worry my DD might be a narcissist?

[Roxietrees]

Ok so maybe this is a bit of a leap but I’m genuinely worried. My DD is only 4.5 and I know they haven’t developed empathy yet at that age but I know she can be sweet and loving to me and to our cat, hence why this reaction surprised me - So we found a dead baby mouse that the cat had killed (its body was completely intact) and it was so small and sweet. I said to DD aw it’s sad isn’t it? She laughed and said no it’s not it’s funny. Then she asked me if she could pick it up! (Using gloves). I remember being her age and finding cute tiny mice & shrews my cat had killed and genuinely feeling sad for them- don’t remember it ever being something I laughed at. AIBU to think this is a totally abnormal reaction and possibly indicates some troubling behavioural problems or, (hope to fuck not!) narcissism? Or was it more likely she was looking for a reaction/attention-seeking by reacting in a way she knew I’d be shocked by? Or am I just an over-sensitive animal lover and she just isn’t??

At 4.5 years old, death or killed are just a words, she has very little to zero idea what those words actually mean. The fact the cat killed the mouse, again isn't something a small child, can really comprehend. All she sees is a dead mouse - and it's more likely it's curiosity rather than anything sinister, that has caused her reaction. You are looking at the death of a mouse by your cat, through adult eyes and understanding. You may have felt sad as a child when your family cat killed a mouse, but those memories of you feeling sad, may have been when you were older than 4.5. Most of us by the time we get to much older adults, don't remember much of when we were very young. It tends to be small snippets. At this stage I really wouldn't worry. If she had said she wanted to kill a mouse herself, then, yes, that would have been something to worry about, but she didn't.

Small children are totally egocentric. It's literally the developmental stage they are at. There will be so many things they don't understand or are curious about that can come across as strange or even upsetting to adults.

Yes I do. I’m a single mother living in fear of a violent ex who has hospitalised me multiple times. Both DD and I have trauma from this, so MH problems are pretty inevitable. As is probably over anxious parenting. Being unable to protect your child and blaming yourself for it makes you a pretty anxious parent. It’s also not the only troubling behaviour (most of which I put down to trauma) - being withdrawn, inability to follow basic instructions, biting, hitting, tantrums like a 2-year-old, crying for no apparent reason, bedwetting, fear of me not being by her side 24/7, the list goes on. Please don’t ask people if they have MH problems IRL (which I’m sure you wouldn’t cos for some reason people think it’s appropriate to ask people painful questions when they can hide behind the anonymity of the internet) - it’s an inappropriately personal question and you’ll either get an answer like this which’ll make you feel awkward as fuck in real life or you’ll be told to fuck off.

Kindly, and with every sympathy for your traumatic experiences, I don't think you are doing your daughter any favours by fixating on normal behaviours and labelling her in this way. Are you taking steps to improve your mental health to limit its impact on her? Are you seeking proper parenting advice to understand the impact of trauma on her? The behaviours you describe sound normal for a child who's been through what your daughter has. The issue here isn't her reaction to a dead baby mouse.

Yes I’m having EMDR therapy and considering therapy for my daughter. Currently just trying to be as loving, present and consistent as I can for her. Not labelling her, was just curious about opinions, I don’t actually think she’s a narcissist, just helpful sometimes to get dramatic opinions of the opposite to reinforce that I’m overthinking

That sounds like a really difficult situation, but I actually think the question about your mental health - if bluntly phrased - was appropriate. You're asking if you're being unreasonable (by nature of the forum) and, yes, it is unreasonable to consider your 4 year old a narcissist, and perhaps points to struggles with reasonable responses to situations more generally. It might be useful to see your response to this incident as fuelled more by your own understandable mental health struggles, rather than anything unusual about your DD's behaviour.

You need professional guidance to unpick which of your DD's behaviours are responses to what sounds like quite substantial trauma, and which might be signs of neurodevelopmental issues. I know support isn't easy to find, and I'm certainly not blaming you for the trauma - you've done a lot to leave the relationship and start building a new life. I hope you and your daughter find safety.

You're definitely over thinking and projecting your feelings onto your Daughter.
Continue with therapy.
Many people have similar feelings. I remember worrying about DS, his lack of empathy, he is 10 now, really caring and considerate. I had nothing to worry about.

No. I believe you can't be diagnosed with psychopathy or narcissistic personality disorder until adulthood anyway as narcissistic traits are completely normal in childhood.
Imagine a baby laying there crying every time it wants something regardless of anyone else's needs... Textbook narcissism 😂 but if it wasn't like that it wouldn't survive! Toddlers think the world revolves around them (all with good reason, normal evolutionary traits) then over the childhood years I guess these things gradually get honed as we learn about the needs of others.
Model empathy and kindness so she learns it over time is all you can do.l

I clearly remember my thoughts at that age

Imagine labelling a four year old a narcissist? Just wait till she's 15 you'll think she's literally satan incarnate?!
You need to consider how this could seriously affect your daughter's happiness and development.

Hi OP, my DD is older now but she was similar at 4. I remember fretting she'd be upset watching a zebra being killed during a nature programme but she got really excited talking about the blood.

She's a very kind, sweet girl. I would not worry.

Do you feel sad when you go to the supermarket and see the meat? If not are you a narcissist?

That was an entirely appropriate conversation about your MH, OP, given your extraordinary strange and pathologising response to a four year old acting like a four year old.

My brother and I found a dead mouse in the garden at a similar age and dissected it 😬 he now works with children with disabilities and I have dedicated my career to charity work. No narcissism here!

You are not just overthinking, your thinking around your daughter is seriously disordered and will have a real, negative impact on her. Posting on Mumsnet is not a remedy for this serious problem.

She's 4.5!!! You sound like my mum, who says that 'for years,' she worried I had no feelings or empathy because I didn't cry when Princess Diana died...I was 6 years old and had no idea who she was!!! 🙄🙄

I’m so sorry to read about your experiences Op, all the more reason though why you absolutely need to steer clear of diagnosing random things for your small and very traumatised dd. I’m glad to hear that you’re having therapy. What you both need is support and time to heal from trauma…not more labels.

I’m sorry you’ve both been through so much OP it sounds incredibly hard. Are you safe now? How long have you been away from your ex?

I’m guessing that you’re scared she’ll be like her dad, but you’re the one she’s living with and she’ll take on so much of how you behave and think. For example in this case she had a first reaction (which might be something like surprise which kind of feels funny) and you said it was sad - she’ll be taking that in and learning over time eg that animals dying is sad.

I think this is also a classic case that if a 4 year old boy thought this was funny we’d be unbothered but with girls we sometimes expect them to be more empathetic and “softer”?

I wouldn't laugh at a dead mouse but neither would I actually be sad about it. So neither of your reactions match mine, but I wouldn't diagnose either of you because of it.

Definitely over thinking this.

That sounds really difficult .

Kids at 4 don’t usually understand that death is a permanent state. So she likely hasn’t grasped the full sorrow of the situation if you know what I mean. it’s just interesting to her.

That word get used a lot on here to describe a violent partner yes I agree but to describe a 4 year old child absolutely not!

OP your update sheds a very different light on your question, which I thought was ridicoulas.

You've removed your daughted from the huge trauma of such a violent home. I would prioritise getting her into play therapy, while she is still young and her brain is plastic. She's been damaged by what happened, and this shows in tantrums, violence and bedwetting.

Being sadded by a dead mouse doesn't mean that she's going to end up like her father, but I think she could hugely benefit from help to overcome her traumatic start in life, and I think she needs support from someone other than you, as she may not be willing to be open with you for fearvof hurting your feelings.

4yo have probably only heard of mice being described as a negative species of animal.

Add to that the developmental norm of not yet developing empathy and she probably doesn’t see the mouse as a real dead animal to feel sad over.

remember as well that cats killing mice is part of the cycle of life. Unless you’re vegetarians I doubt you get her to say how each chicken you eat is sad etc.

One of my children at a similar age wanted to dig up a dead pet so they could see what they looked like. Obviously we said no. They have grown up into one of the most empathetic people I have ever met.

My question wasn’t inappropriate and your answer doesn’t make me feel awkward.

I was fully expecting you to have mental health issues, that’s why I asked. It’s very concerning for a parent to be thinking that their young child has a serious personality disorder. That kind of thinking can get worse and lead to bad places.

Your child is young and has been put through trauma. They are also now living with a traumatised parent that has their own issues. It would be rare for a child not to display some concerning behaviour.

What help have you sought for your child and the abuse she has been put though? Does she have play therapy? She is so young and her brain is still developing, now is the time to push for intervention to help her process all she has been and is continuing to go though.

Wishing you both all the best.