M&S changing rooms

[SweetChilliGirl]

Was I unreasonable to send this to M&S?

Good morning,

Having not shopped for lingerie with you for several years, due to your policy of allowing trans-identifying men into the women's changing rooms, can I now be assured that, in line with the judgement of the supreme court males will no longer be allowed to identify their way into your single sex changing rooms, thus preserving biological women's dignity and safety? I would very much like to be able to shop with you again.

I look forward to hearing from to to clarify this important matter.

Regards,

Sweetchilligirl

a man comes along and can either see her breasts through the gap, or worse, rips open the curtain as says " oops I didn't realise someone was in there" (whether deliberate or accidental)

That is exactly what happened to the young woman in the next cubicle to me in Uniqlo. I was halfway into a pair of jeans so couldn't get out in order to give him a piece of mind. He sounded middle-aged and well spoken and she was very shocked - no way he didn't know what he was doing.

So why does a man “want or need” to enter a female space, if not for predatory reasons?
There really aren’t any good reasons, however hard you try to spin it.

Brava OP! I find shopping a nightmare now - I have an 11yo DD and I don’t want to take her into unisex changing rooms where, when she comes out to show me something she’s tried on, having men gawping at her in the vicinity or even worse, in a changing room next door. It’s hard enough being quite a self conscious preteen without the problem of not even being able to get away from blokes when trying to build body confidence. I make it clear to shops now that I won’t go in unless they can provide a same-sex changing facility.

Also the unisex changing rooms really do just frame male entitlement nicely. There’s ALWAYS some boyfriend sitting on his phone looking bored on the sofas. Why are they there? Just fuck off

And transwomen were always there.

And it’s now been clarified that they never belonged there, so they need to go to the men’s

You think they acquired some sort of squatter’s rights? 😆

Do you understand the difference between cross dressing and being transgender

What is the difference, and what impact does it have on what single sex toilets people get to use?

There isn't one that I can ascertain.

All of it is about the feelings of the man.

Which are not more important than the privacy and safety and dignity of women.

I’m not saying the reasons are good. I’m just saying they aren’t necessarily predatory.

To be fair that's how Donald Trump sexually abused E Jean Carroll. Trans people are not the issue.

And I asked what those reasons could be? Can you give me some examples?

Any man who enters women's single sex spaces knowing that women don't all consent is a predator.

They know full well that not all women consent and the decent ones already stay out.

Where do I say it’s a good thing? Where do I imply it?

Nowhere do I say or imply that that society trending more liberal over time is always a positive thing. Nowhere do I say or imply that women’s loss of privacy is a positive thing. Recognising it exists and recognising that trans people have a fair amount of support in the day to day isn’t agreeing with it. It’s simply recognising it to be the case.

’Good reasons’ to who? To me? To you? Or to the transwoman?

Are we assuming moral absolutism? And if so, who’s?

Defining ‘predator’ so we are on the same page would be fair at this point.

‘A person who looks for other people in order to use, control, or harm them in some way.’

Is that a fair definition to you? And is the harm either with intent and premeditation or harm either way?

Well you'd hope that trans people would respect the rule, and campaign for change/boycott if they disagree, not try to flout it by deception. However, if they do, I agree it will be extremely difficult to enforce. Not because TW will slip by unnoticed, which they won't of course, rather that staff will pretend not to notice for fear of unpleasantness or from pity. Which tbh is what many of us did for years before we realised the implications and where we'd end up.

Not because TW will slip by unnoticed, which they won't of course

I mean … yes, they very definitely will. Your expectations of most people’s observation skills is off the charts if you think every transwoman will be readily identified in a busy shopping centre.

Why are people waffling on about having to prove our sex? Nothing has changed. It’s just that a word in the law has been clarified. The EA wording - which has not changed in any way - was written well before this self ID nonsense took off. We didn’t have to prove our sex back then, so why would we now? So in a fit of “No shit Sherlock”, the process will be as it was a decade or so ago, before trans people started to misinterpret the law.

I think you’re deluded to think men presenting as women blend not the background.

But as I keep saying, toilets are the thin end of the wedge. The bigger issues are thankfully the place men can’t just walk in off the street or bully their way into - DV shelters, NHS wards, police cells to name but a few. This requires another person or people to get involved and they’ll be placed in the correct place.

God almighty!
You insisted that men wanting access to women’s toilets are not necessarily predatory, and so I asked you for examples of other reasons they might want access.
Why can’t you just answer the question?

We’ll have to agree to disagree on how well some individuals blend into the background. And agreed - as by thread heading, this is solely about changing rooms in consumer facilities.

It harms women to lose single sex spaces.

The man who enters single sex spaces without consent is harming women.

He doesn't need to be there. He has the options to use the spaces for his own sex.

So he's only there for validation, he's there to use women for that. He is controlling women who have no say, and until now could call women who object bigots. He harms women who can't share a space with men, no matter how that man dresses or what he believes about himself.

He meets the definiton of predator 100%

And you will say again you are not defending him. At this point I don't believe you.

I’m asking because one persons good reason is another persons bad reason. Surely that’s perfectly understandable to grasp? If not then I don’t think we’re going to get very far in a discussion. And that’s ok.

I also ask above to agree on definition of ‘predatory’, because yes it matters.

We have to hold the line.

Men cannot be women in respect of some single sex spaces but not others, that would be completely ridiculous.

As the Supreme Court determined on Wednesday Trans Women are Men.