To think somethings wrong with DD(4)

[yikesorbikes]

DD is the 6th 4 year old I’ve raised including SC and I’ve worked with children in the past so am not an anxious FTM.

School haven’t shared any concerns, everything is just put down to her being the youngest but there are several children with SEN and as she’s doing well academically and not particularly disruptive I do think she gets overlooked.

I’ll try not to make it too long but this is an overview of my main concerns.

-She hasn’t made any friends. She’s not shy and is perfectly good at communicating just chooses to run around and play on the obstacle trail on her own at school
If I ask her about who she likes and who she talks to she only has bad things to say about everybody. She doesn’t want anyone from her class at her birthday for example.

-She has a very active imagination, spends a lot of time making up really detailed stories in her head that she remembers months later. She can entertain herself for hours with a pen and paper writing stories and drawing pictures. This has lead to a lot of lying, most of the time it’s just that she saw something flying or an animal spoke to her but she has said more serious lies such as someone hurting or saying something horrible when they didn’t. Sometimes I don’t know if she knows that she’s lying.

• she doesn’t really have any fear or risk aversion, will climb and jump off anything.

When she falls she just gets up, she hasn’t cried from pain for over a year despite always being covered in bruises and scabs. She also doesn’t really ever seek out comfort or reassurance.

-She’s quite morbid and obsessed with ghost and monsters. She will talk about things like death, fights, fire and people getting hurt often which has upset other children and which she doesn’t seem to understand.

• She’s very critical of others and herself, will say she/they are stupid and pointless for not being able to do certain things. She’s also said things like someone isn’t allowed to do something nice or fun because they didn’t do something else well enough.

AIBU to be concerned? Does this sound normal to you?

She did cry but very rarely and never for long. We put it down to having mastered the routine by the 6th and having so many older siblings meant she got lots of attention and held a lot anyway.

She did scream/cry a lot from 18 months-2 but then just sort of stopped.

A friend of mine had a husband like this and the description of your daughter sounded similar. He doesn't have a diagnosis. Has been very successful in business, less so in relationships, but it doesn't bother him very much! Ups and downs.

Just to say that having a high pain threshold could be classed as a sensory issue - being under-sensitive to pain/touch (rather than the more obvious hypersensitivities that cause difficulties with labels/textures etc.

Wanting to spend lots of time on the obstacle course could also be a sensory seeking behaviour around bog physical body movements.

How is she with temperature? Does she know if she is too hot/cold or would she happily run around in a t-shirt in the snow?

My son has some sensory issues. Doesn't really feel hot/ cold/ hunger/ thirst. It's always been a challenge to get him to eat and drink or wear the right clothes! To get him to take his coat off when it's hot. He also struggled to know when he needed the toilet until the last minute, right up to about 11. I mostly know when he's ill because he gets really grumpy then suddenly he's got a really bad cold or cough rather than knowing he's not feeling great.

I also think neurodiversity as we have a lot in our family. Her lack of social skills speaks autism, her impulsivity adhd and her not noticing pain in general is a neurodiverse thing. NHS minor injuries unit has twice failed to pick up broke bones for our family as I guess as don’t look like we are in pain as much as we should! I broke my foot in three places and walked around on it for six weeks until a private mri picked up it was broken - dr’s surgery, minor injuries unit, A&E all thought just muscular and I was walking around on it despite swelling so I can see why they assumed it was ok.

It’s vanishingly rare for people to be unable to feel physical pain. The chances of that would be absolutely minuscule.

FWIW, I was unbelievably stoical as a child, to the point where people found it unnerving. I never cried when I was in pain, and was very tolerant of it. I’ve still got a sky high pain threshold. I certainly feel pain; I’m just good at putting up with it.

Actually, I was also obsessed with ghosts, monsters and murder etc as a kid (still am, tbh). And I also wrote loads of stories, had very vivid dreams and told a lot of fibs.

I wasn’t as solitary as the OP’s DD but I was certainly not a sociable kid at all. I played with other kids at school but probably preferred being mostly on my own and I found most other kids a bit tiresome.

I’m not autistic and as far as I know I don’t have ADHD. I’m dyspraxic, though.

Sorry I really need to disagree with this - an nhs diagnose can take years, plus things get much more complicated as she will get older and you don’t want to be in the place where you realise she needs more support and can’t get it because you are waiting for a diagnosis. Being bright is not it - it’s when older maybe needing movement breaks during exams, or exams in a smaller room, or if she does have 1 friend a diagnosis means some schools will help ensure she stays with that friend in class or form so she’s not isolated.

neurodiverse kids tends to start showing anxiety around the age of 8/9 and need extra support because of that

Do you still feel other people are tiresome? Socialising is exhausting? This is a trait of autism especially female autism - an awareness of social skills but need to act them rather than they come naturally it’s called masking and is exhausting. It’s very common for dyspraxia to come with neurodiversity.

Oh, and in addition to my post above - I barely cried as a baby. I didn’t even cry at birth. I was breathing perfectly well but not attempting to make a sound. The midwife had to smack me several times, hard, to make sure I was capable of crying.

Interestingly, when I was about a year old, I also went through a phase for a few months of suddenly having horrendous angry, screaming tantrums, but after that I returned to my non-crying habit and didn’t have a ‘terrible twos’ phase or anything like that. My parents were told that my screaming b phase was probably down to being bright enough to know what I wanted to do or say, but wasn’t old enough to be physically capable of forming the words or actions - that might be bollocks though; it was the 70s!

I would pursue a diagnosis. It's not causing an issue at school now, but it might do as she gets older and it can take a few years to go through the process.

If she gets diagnosed, it doesn't mean you have to seek additional support if she doesn't need it, but at least it's on record.

I'd also be wondering about these things and i think she is lucky to have you with your willingness to ask questions.

Just throwing this out as I have been learning a bit about this lately, there is robust evidence that personality disorders are a genetic trait present from birth, so about 1 in 100 children are born with psychopathy. There is a serious lack of understanding about personality disorders. It doesn't mean a person will be a serial killer and it is not due to poor parenting/neglect/abuse. Robust evidence shows a person with a perfectly normal upbringing is just born with this kind of permanent brain wiring.

Even a psychopath can have a reasonably normal life and may grow up being completely unaware - check out this short video with a scientist who discovered by accident that he is a pyschopath, and lives a pretty regular life:

There are other interviews where he goes into more depth.

Sorry this isn't perhaps a popular or happy suggestion, but if i was in your shoes I'd want to consider all options, and no parent has caused their child to have a personality disorder but it would be better if there was more understanding and early interventions.

Patric Gagne is someone else who has spoken about growing up with a personality disorder and offers a very interesting and, i think, helpful perspective.

Sounds like for now keep observing and learning - I would read more about ASD, ADHD and other ND ways of being. My two are Audhd but very very difficult children to each other. Not much in what you’ve said screams ND to me but most people’s understanding of neurodivergence is so so limited. So I think it’s worth understanding more eg playing away from other children could be due to being over stimulated, not crying over pain could be due to issues with interosception (I’ve spelled this wrong but my brain is tired now!)

Yes, I’m aware it’s a trait associated with autism and I’m aware that people can have more than one neurodivergent condition - but I’m not autistic. Sorry to disappoint!

I’m certainly introverted, but so are plenty of other non-autistic people. I don’t have many, if any, autistic traits beyond that. The pain threshold thing is, I suspect, linked to my dyspraxia.

IANA child psych but I've worked in autism and disabilities respite, and have autism and ADHD sparkling all through my family tree. This doesn't feel like autism to me. I appreciate that diagnoses can be helpful but the incorrect diagnosis isn't going to help. I sought support for my son years ago for OCD behaviours and he was diagnosed autistic - the entire form I was asked to complete was about autism. Every single question. I had to fill out an additional piece of paper at the end to explain what I was actually seeking help for. Surprise, he was diagnosed autistic. I don't doubt the accuracy of it, as I said, it's the family inheritance, but I was so frustrated with the initial information gathering process. I knew all that about him - I wanted help for spiralling OCD!! It was unbelievably biased. It may be different depending on where you are. I find the vast array of human behaviours that are classed as existing within the autistic sphere boggling. My child is highly justice led, very concerned with truth and has a huge problem with, for example, adults expecting children to adhere to codes of conduct while breaking them themselves. If I ask him a direct question he won't lie - if the answer will reveal something he doesn't want me to know he gets stumped, because he just doesn't feel like he can do it. I know they aren't all the same, but the broad spectrum diagnosis thing really bugs me sometimes.

Completely unqualified to give an opinion on this but my gut instinct is that you should try not to pathologise her yet. She’s young. She might just be very intelligent and so presents as different. You don’t want to destroy her self esteem by making her feel odd by seeing her quirks as potential symptoms. Be firm around the lying but otherwise it’s not impacting her. Some kids are just spooky kids. If things change and you’re worried about her development then follow up, but otherwise I’d try not to worry

I was also thinking this reading the OPs posts.

Girls don’t fit the standard profile. My youngest (boy) was diagnosed at 3.5 years old. My eldest (girl) has just received a diagnosis of AuDHD at nearly 27. I had absolutely no idea with her yet I knew something was up with my son within 2 weeks of birth. Check it out and listen to your instincts.

Very high pain threshold/poor proprioception are sensory issues. School won’t do anything about it as shes doing well but may be worth going back to the doctors as she gets older if it’s causing issues. Also may be more apparent as a problem for her when she starts secondary.

What?? What's she meant to do, clap her hand over her mouth? She's 4! There's zero indication that OP isn't challenging the negative comments at every step.

I think that's an outrageous comment!

So do l

My four year old son has a lot of those characteristics (also obsessed with ghosts funnily enough!). It never really crossed my mind to medicalise it. I just think he’s a bit quirky. He’s my PFB though so I don’t have older children to compare him to.

I mean it doesn’t sound like my 4 year old but I could probably swap each of the slightly weird things you’ve listed for other slightly weird things mine does. She may well be on the spectrum somewhere as might mine but she’s getting on ok and it’s not causing any real problems so I’m just taking each day as it comes.

She may well be on the spectrum somewhere as might mine but she’s getting on ok and it’s not causing any real problems so I’m just taking each day as it comes

It doesn’t necessarily cause problems at 4. But as they get older they become unable to cope.

My dd was diagnosed at 16. I wish she’d been diagnosed earlier. She ended up in severe burnout, couldn’t take her A levels and was out of school for 18 months.