How do I help my friend? (SC ruling related)

[CanYouTurnItDown]

AIBU to blatantly misuse AIBU to ask, how do we stop the insanity arising from the SC ruling.

Sensibly applied it means that those men who have misused the legislation (if that’s the right word) around self ID to have access to vulnerable women can no longer do that, and that crime statistics are going to be more representative, but the reality is that now women who don’t fit the cliched version of a woman are being challenged and kicked out of ladies toilets and changing rooms.

Why is it that my friend who has never hurt anyone has been challenged today, after years of dealing with the stigma around being a gay, non feminine woman, who thought the world was changing, now has to go through this shit again.

It’s so hard, something needed to change, but that change is damaging so many people.

It is problematic that policing of single sex spaces is left to a form of 'self ID' based on the perceptions of those informally policing these spaces. No easy answer unless everyone carries an ID card which had their biological sex indicated. There have always been people who without any direct intention are either androgynous, or can pass as the opposite sex, and a heightened policing of single sex spaces will inevitably make life harder for such people. While I agree with the SC judgment in its insistence on a biological definition of sex, it is clear that there are practical difficulties whichever side of the line this had been decided. It was also totally untenable for the Darlington nurses to have to be naked in front of a pot-bellied man with long lank hair and intact male genitalia ogling them while they did so...

I totally agree with that, something needed to change. The situation was unacceptable.

I just don’t know how to navigate what comes next for these women who are now being shut out of places that they have every right to be

I disagree with your statement, trans women do not have every right to invade women's spaces! I'm glad the court made this ruling. The Trans movement need to protest for their own spaces, not invade the womens.

I agree. Women spaces are for biological females. Trans women have no right to be in women spaces, as this poster said they need to be fighting for their own spaces and not taking women's spaces

OP is talking about a biological woman who is being mistaken for a transperson when she is not one.

OP is talking about a biological female!

Maybe if that really happened a copy of her drivers licence/ passport. It's probably similar to someone with hidden disabilities being challenged when parking on a disabled bay.

Well, that's the issue isn't it. They're really not and they really haven't.

The SC isn't there to tell people how to sort it out.

I don’t really understand the issue - your friend being challenged is down to men abusing the social rules around female spaces. Things will die down but right now some TRAs are digging their heels in so women need to be vigilant.

Your friend surely can’t mean that the only way she can use female spaces is if men can use them too?

I thought the OP meant that her friend is a biological woman who does not present in a feminine way? In which case that friend does indeed have the right to be in women's spaces.

If that is correct, then OP I'm sorry for your friend. I hope that when she was challenged, she was able to calmly confirm her sex and the issue just quietly went away. This is what has happened each time my female non-conforming friend has been asked - not challenged but asked - about her presence in a women's space.

I note that following the SC judgment, there have been a lot of rather unlikely claims about how extensive this problem is going to be, and many of the wilder claims appear to be coming from people who have no concept at all of how clear their (male) sex remains. I see that your own post escalates from saying that your friend has been challenged to asserting that 'women have been kicked out' from changing rooms etc. This makes me doubt the reliability of what you say.

Unfortunately even drivers licences and passports are allowed to have wrong sex markers now.
As for OPs friend, this question has come up multiple times, usually theoretically. For the vast majority of masculine women, their sex may be not obvious at a very cursory glance but normally the moment they open their mouths and engage, it's clear they are female. There is a world of difference between a butch lesbian and a trans woman, primarily around the fact that lesbians aren't men.
There does not appear to be a wholesale chucking out of lesbians out of women's toilets, nor do I expect there to be, even if #whatabouthelesbians is suddenly a concern for people who weren't so worried about them when Stonewall was calling those lesbians sexual racists.

I’ve been with a friend who was ‘challenged’ in some nightclub toilets many years ago when we were early 20’s.

She is a tall ‘masculine’ presenting lesbian. Some girls behind us in the queue very loudly asked why there was a man in the toilet. As soon as my friend turned around, before she even opened her mouth to reply, this girl was like “oh my God I’m so sorry, from behind when you were stood still I thought you were a man, I’m really sorry”. My friend took it with good grace and said she’d probably have made that mistake too.

In my own experience I can tell within 2 seconds or less, if someone is standing still and I see them from behind maybe it’s more difficult but the second they move, I see a different profile of their face, or they talk, it’s evident whether they’re male or female.

I’ve yet to hear or see solid evidence of women being routinely “kicked out” of women’s toilets or changing rooms, I’d suggest it’s so rare that the media might be interested in your friends story of this has suddenly happened to her, after the SC ruling. .

I get quite frustrated at people asking 'what about lesbians' when we are talking about excluding men from women's spaces. Lesbians aren't men. They are same-sex attracted women.
It's homophobic as fuck to keep comparing them to men. They are not.

She’s not a trans woman, she’s a woman who doesn’t fit the stereotype of what some people think a woman looks like

The OP talks of her friend, who is a gay, non feminine woman. Did you even read her post?

She did say ‘do I need to start carrying ID around with me to prove I’m not a bloke?’ which makes me so fucking sad.

What do you think the answer is then?
The TRAs have a lot to answer for

I have no idea, that’s what I’m struggling with and why I’m asking the question with no agenda.

OP I understand where you're coming from, sadly I think this ruling has given a lot more people the green light to be transphobic AND homophobic. I have a female friend who is over 6ft, while she does dress feminine she has short hair (she's black) and big feet (not surprisingly given her height). If she dresses plainly she gets accused of being a man, if she dresses up she gets accused of being a man in drag. She can't win. I suspect there's underlying racism in that as well, eg she's been told that her voice is too deep or that she has muscular arms as 'evidence' when her voice and frame are in no way unusual for a black woman (apart from being above average height).

And to the posters who have suggested it, why the f should a woman have to carry her driving license to prove that she's allowed to exist? Can you imagine how demeaning that is, to have other women looking at you with suspicion and demanding you prove your right to be there?

There are always lots of people on these threads saying 'well I don't know anyone like that so it can't be much of a problem'. Ignorant of the fact that that's down to the circles they choose to keep.

Gender identity ideology relies on male/female stereotypes. Hopefully if and when it dies a natural death and people understand that women can look masculine but still be women, your friend will have fewer problems.

Well this is it, the crux of it (which I totally disagree with) is gender identity ideology. But it kind of feels like society isn’t ready for that.

At least women now feel they can challenge others instead of being frightened of being arrested for a hate crime.

I think for your friend it will die down, but she is the unfortunate collateral damage of all the transwomen in recent years incorrectly entering woemns spaces.

And honestly yes carrying id or similar may help, but just answering in her own voice will probably make it relatively clear.

I think 99% of society is absolutely ready for the death of gender ideology.

Male/female stereotypes less so. But hopefully as gender ideology loses its grip we can continue with the progress that was being made to reduce the rigidity of sex stereotypes before gender ideology took us back to the dark ages.

It makes me incredibly sad that she’s done nothing to deserve this, she’s been through the 80s and 90s of homophobia and being terrified to come out, the fear of not being accepted, to a time where no one cared. She got married, she was accepted for who she is and now has people challenging her belonging again.

I know that change was needed but I can understand why some people feel that we’ve regressed. I really hope the transition period (no pun intended) is brief.

I did and I've re-read and it still confuses me. If OP's friend is a woman, she just needs to respond to whoever is challenging her, as others have said, women now feel they can challenge people in their spaces without being accused of a hate crime. Women are on edge having had years of men invading our spaces, doesn't excuse anyone being rude, but a simple challenge and response from OPs friend is all that is needed.