CIS

[Delivery]

Just read an article about the Supreme Court judgement today. It repeatedly refers to Cis women. I get so unbelievably annoyed by that term.

I am not a ‘Cis’ woman. I just hate the term. If you want to be a trans woman, fine. That’s what you are. Don’t make me the other side of your imaginary coin. Don’t make me call myself something I’m not. Don’t make me part of your ‘We’re all just at various points on the woman spectrum’ nonsense.

There are women. And there are trans women. Two entirely different things.

True 😂
I just don't understand the need to enter women's private areas. If gay men were wanting to use our spaces because they seemed men's areas to be a risk to them. Women would quite rightly be able to say hell no, but yet it's acceptable for a man to say they identify as a woman and we shouldn't say anything because it's unkind but allowing any male in a female space is posing a risk and causing women to feel vulnerable. They are physically stronger and if they haven't had any surgery are just as capable of rape. Not all men would harm a woman but some would there is a reason single sex areas exist. I don't know how we got to this point that the lines are so blurred

Such a funny thread to read through about such a pile of old bollocks. I really wish I could eloquently put into words how I feel about the whole ridiculous thing. Thank you so much to all of you that can and do and all of the women who did not give up and made the new law that’s been passed happen.

Who the bloody hell invented this word cis??

Load of utter nonsense.

People trying very hard to make fetch male women happen.

No idea but I would hazard a guess, not someone they would describe as a 'cis' woman 😂

It’s offensive and surely now confined to the dustbin of obsolete terminology, given yesterday’s legal ruling.

Anyone who uses it is a) very thick or b) being deliberately provocative or c) unable to see past their own blinkered nonsensical twisted beliefs. I think there’s an overlap between a) and c).

😂

Don't you dare come for cheese and jam sandwiches! Thick white crusty bread, tangy blackcurrant jam, sharp mature cheddar. The perfect sandwich 🥪 😋 😍

Where did the OP state that it was the only source of annoyance for her? People are allowed to be annoyed about more than one thing, with varying degrees of seriousness/importance.

To be honest I hate this debate, because I do think trans women should have some rights and there is no easy solution for this but I do detest being called a cis woman. I am a woman, not cis.

Trans women have the same rights as anyone else. What they want are rights to go into spaces and sports they shouldn’t. Not everyone should get what they want. Exclusion sometimes is necessary.

Having a special word to denote that I am not a trans woman is about as necessary as having a special word to denote that I am not a plumber, a resident of Ross on Wye, or a keen bird watcher. It's only possible value would be its use by members of the community who were those things in order to indicate to each other I was not. Absolutely no need for a word within the mainstream to denote that people are not part of a tiny minority.

I don't think people are saying trans women shouldn't have rights. They should be able to go about their lives not being assaulted, abused, they should be able to work and live like everyone else. But their rights should not trump women's rights to safety and it shouldn't be as easy as a man to walk into women's areas by saying they've decided they're Lucy not Steve today and get into sex segregated areas.

He inspired my new username 😃

So you understand that the term 'cis' doesn't just mean 'biological woman' or 'female', but you feel it is pedantic to not use it. Even though using requires believing in philosophical beliefs that I would predict that the majority of the population don't believe in.

Great. use it all you like of course, no one is saying that you shouldn't use it if you believe in it. But please don't dismiss the realities of what it means and what purpose it serves.

Being told that I don’t have to use the word myself is irrelevant. People who get their knickers in a twist about their pronouns appear to have permission to be outraged that someone might use the wrong ones. Even though I’m struggling to think of a situation/conversation where anyone uses a person’s pronouns to their face. ‘Hey she/her, can I borrow yer pen?’ So if they are allowed to be annoyed to the point of having colleagues disciplined or friends shunned, then I reserve the right to object to people calling me a cis woman. What a fucking non term.

Very well said. And gave me a little chuckle for good measure😁

So, the phrase is meaningless and it causes harm to those who believe that they could be 'in the wrong body'.

Those people you discuss wish to be something they objectively and materially are not. Activists used the term 'wrong body' as a way to try to solidify a philosophical belief and give it some grounding in biology. The more people use the term 'wrong body' reinforces that there is something very wrong with them. When there is not. They might be distressed at their reality, but there is no medical problem. This has been clarified by transgender academics.

I don't 'feel' like a women according to some of the sex stereotypes that I see pushed in society. But that does not make me anything but a female person who has their own personality.

You continue to discuss gender as if it is a real concept for defining people. How can you define a group of people without being able to define them?

To be honest I hate this debate, because I do think trans women should have some rights

Trans women have a whole raft of rights, all that’s changed is they don’t have the right to identify into protections designed for women.

Please be very clear how this can be a coherent and cogent definition of a group of people because no person on this earth who is not male of a age of maturity can know what being a 'man' feels.

Do you see the issue?

To exaggerate this to highlight the logic, can you tell me how it feels to be a bird?

Or can you imagine what it might feel like and you might be able to conceptualise that feeling and therefore you are categorising yourself as a bird? Or is it that you want this feeling to mean that you are a bird so you are categorising it as a bird?

How do you know that you actually don't feel like a bird, but instead you feel like a cat?

Yes these are ridiculous notions. But I am writing them to prove the point.

No person who is not an adult male could conceivably understand whether what they 'feel' is like a man or like a woman that doesn't conform to what they think a 'woman' feels or like a boy if they are male who has not matured yet.

All other things aside, I often see people say "I never use pronouns to someone's face" and with respect, it's bollocks.

Say you're introducing someone to someone else - "This is Lucy, it's her first day, she's going to be working in our office". Lucy is right there with you and hears you use she/her pronouns.

I see this argument used a lot and it's absolute nonsense.

I agree with you fully.

also, is the term cis man ever used?

i hear cis women a lot, but haven’t really come across any biological men having to refer to themselves as cis men?

You are One is saying "cis women" to mean
• the majority of female humans
• excluding the females who think they should be included into the male classification and
• excluding the males who think they should be included into the female classifucation.

So if "women" is the main group with female and male persons "cis" is a specific sub-grouping based on how an individual (not you or the State) feels about themselves based on random emotions.

So how should society / a state benchmark these feelings and emotions

Using Irish law what sex is the individual with an implanted embryo in the uterus if the individual has a Irish GRC and a male gender feeling?

Effect of gender recognition certificate generally
18. (1) Where a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person the person’s gender shall from the date of that issue become for all purposes the preferred gender so that if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman.

Definitions
2. In this Act—
“foetus”, in relation to a pregnancy, means an embryo or a foetus during the period of time commencing after implantation in the uterus of a woman and ending on the complete emergence of the foetus from the body of the woman;
“termination of pregnancy”, in relation to a pregnant woman, means a medical procedure which is intended to end the life of a foetus;
“woman” means a female person of any age.
Offences
23. (1) It shall be an offence for a person, by any means whatsoever, to intentionally end the life of a foetus otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.
(2) It shall be an offence for a person to prescribe, administer, supply or procure any drug, substance, instrument, apparatus or other thing knowing that it is intended to be used or employed with intent to end the life of a foetus, or being reckless as to whether it is intended to be so used or employed, otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.
(3) Subsections (1) and (2) shall not apply to a pregnant woman in respect of her own pregnancy.
(4) It shall be an offence for a person to aid, abet, counsel or procure a pregnant woman to intentionally end, or attempt to end, the life of the foetus of that pregnant woman otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.
(5) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years, or both.
(6) A prosecution for an offence under this section may be brought only by or with the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions.
(7) Nothing in subsection (4) shall operate to prevent or restrict access to services lawfully carried out in a place outside the State.

Can I just chuck in that cis is a Latin word, not an acronym and not made up for the purposes of chemistry. Cis and trans are prepositions meaning 'on this side of' and 'across, beyond'. The Roman Empire had a province called Transalpine Gaul, meaning the bit of Gaul on the other side of the Alps (from Rome) and another one called Cisalpine Gaul, meaning the one on our side of the Alps, i.e. in the far north of what is now Italy. I suppose they come to be used with gender in the sense that a cisgender person has stayed with the gender they've always had and a transgender person has crossed to another gender. That takes us on to what gender is and I have neither time nor patience to delve into that.

Saying 'you don't have to use the term cis about yourself but you also shouldn't object to other people using it about you' is about as logical as saying 'you don't have to use the words lardarse, dago, mulatto, spastic, four eyes, etc etc about yourself but you can't object to other people using those terms about you'.

Cis is a slur. I am not a cis woman and you should respect that by not referring to me as one.