To think you can’t take the moral high ground on private schools if….

[Loudcloud]

….. you moved to a particular area for good schools, and paid a premium on the property price to do so?

Surely both are using your finances to get your kid a better education?

Slightly more than half are charities

I disagree with this. We could afford private but we send our children (including my daughter who has SEN) to the local school. It's not a great school, the majority of children leave after S4 and a very small percentage of them head to to University so it's way down the silly league tables. It is important for us to have a balanced life, sure - we spend money on private ballet lessons, taekwando competitions, etc - this would be impossible at the level my kids enjoy if we had school fees. We also have a nice house with lots of books, days out to interesting places, a yearly trip to somewhere new, a trip overseas to see their grandparents (we are immigrants) every couple years... all these things are important to our family as a whole as well as to the children themselves.

I am glad my children are firmly rooted in our neighbourhood and can walk to all their friends houses and feel comfortable and secure being part of the community. I do a lot of volunteering at the schools around all their inclusion initiatives and was part of the group that started our first school library - giving access to a small library for hundreds of children who would otherwise never have this sort of experience. These things are important to me and I work hard to improve the local school, alongside taking the challenges of being in a 'mixed catchment'.

We have plenty of friends who are in private and state education and I don't judge either - every family figures out what works for them and prioritises their money as they wish. I do absolutely believe that private education is a privilege unavailable to most, so can't quite work out why there wouldn't be VAT on it, but that's a different question.

Yes as I posted above, DD has friends whose parents are very sniffy about us sending her private, but who could afford to do so much more than we can - £900k+ houses, £150k/yr household income, several luxury holidays a year, kids have tutors!

And as well we also know parents with high incomes or masses of assets (eg several houses they rent out), but who managed to pretend they were terribly religious to get their kids into nice CofE and Catholic schools.

We have none of those things and are the classic “no holidays/one ancient car/tiny house” parents. We’re getting to pay a massive wodge of extra tax though, which will ensure that I never vote Labour again, despite having been a Labour voter all my life. Labour should be pro education, not for taxing education.

If you want to tax wealth, just tax wealth, NOT education as a poor proxy for wealth - it only indirectly taxes wealth, but has the greater impact on children, bursary recipients, and on the employees of the private sector - who will be mostly ordinary teachers and maintenance staff and dinner ladies, not themselves remotely wealthy.

If you want to tax wealth, just tax income and assets, FFS. Huge amounts of unearned wealth is tied up in property and assets in the country, and disproportionately owned by the wealthy and the over-60s, especially buy to lets and “investment” properties. It’s that that needs taxing, not education!

I didn’t mention outstanding. I have worked in ‘outstanding’ schools that would be worse for my child than the ‘good’ ones I have worked in.

I think lots of people have very different ideas of what the “best” means.

I wanted my DC to go to a local school with friends round the corner, and to feel part of our local community. I wanted them to be down to earth and mix with people from all walks of life. I wanted them to do their best, but not feel anxious or pressured. I also wanted to set the example of living the values that I believe in, and I don’t believe in selective education. For me, that is giving them the “best” education. And no I don’t live in a leafy suburb with outstanding schools!

I was fully verbally attacked by a complete random in the doctor’s waiting room some years ago. I’d never even met the woman!

After that update I don't understand why you judge others.

It’s a fair challenge and this is the main thing that has given me pause about private schools. I do worry about the privileged bubble factor.

But I think the assumption that a broader demographic mix automatically leads to greater diversity of experience is a bit of a myth. Demographically mixed schools are often very segregated on class, sex and ethnic lines. Also to be brutal: I am not sure the marginal benefit of being exposed to a wider variety of backgrounds is sufficient to justify the huge downsides of huge clsss sizes, behavioral issues and discipline problems. But I hear you…

This is a much clearer way of saying what I wanted to say so thank you! I am glad my kids go to school where they do.

And that is a travesty, something that needs to be sorted.

I moved closer to a good school, which happens to be one of the few that was fully accessible in our area, it’s in the catchment for the only high school that provides good ASN support I’m the area. I moved her there to give her the same access to school that her peers have, so she can be a part of the school community.

There are some areas in the catchment which are very low income families. Should I not feed my daughter tonight so she is the same as them? Her NHS AFO splints are crippling her so she can’t walk without pain. We’ve tried having them adjusted several times but will now go private to get a pair that fit properly, should I not do that either? Provision for disabled children across the board is woefully inadequate. That needs to change. Instead of picking on the parents of disabled children for trying to get them to a level playing field, perhaps join with them in campaigning for that change.

Fully agree!
Similarly people who judge private school families but use themselves private healthcare, tutors, etc. The principle is the same: either you think everybody should use the state facilities or accept that everybody can choose which ones they want to pay for.

I sent my children to a London very demographically mixed state primary school and then to private secondary schools. Can’t say they had any difference of experience. They made friends with whoever they got on with. Don’t think they gave wealth any thought either way.

Very good point, op. I never thought of that. My god the moral high ground of people who are lucky enough to go to good comps is pretty insufferable

I personally don’t put private healthcare in the same category as private schools. For me the thing with private schools is if the generally more wealthy, stereotypically more educated people opt out of the state school system it affects the demographic of the local schools and creates a two-tier elitist system, perpetuating inequality in society. If someone decides to pay for their knee surgery privately because they don’t want to wait on a waiting list, for example, it doesn’t really have a negative effect on everyone else who can’t afford it. Though I guess it still does perpetuate inequality and make rich people care less about the state of the NHS.

That said, I would never comment on other people’s education choices- in my experience it’s the private school parents who feel the need to justify their choices to anyone who will listen, despite nobody asking!

I don’t think the “moral” issue should be with individual families making the best decisions they can in their own circumstances. We would pretty much all do the same if we could.

In an ideal world, I don’t think private schools should exist at all - mostly because if all children had to attend state schools (including those of politicians!) then there might finally be a real and genuine driving force to actually improve all schools and meet the needs of all children. Is that simplistic and idealistic? Yes. Do I think that could be implemented overnight? No, of course not. And it would come at a huge cost to the taxpayer. But I do think every child deserves to have access to a decent education, and getting ahead in life should be more merit-based rather than how much money your family has and who they know.

I was dead against private school for my own children. Until my son was so badly bullied and had unmet and undiagnosed SEND in secondary school. In sheer desperation, I moved him to a private school. Total hypocrite, absolutely - but it taught me a harsh lesson. Far from being the amazing cure-all, it was very much worse in so many aspects - but I was also then paying £21k/year for the privilege. It was so much worse that I ended up moving him again to the ‘rough and ready’ enormous comp that many of my friends were horrified to hear I was considering. That school was amazing and he thrived there. So this blanket “all private schools are so much better than state schools” attitude is nonsense as well. They will have better facilities. They will have smaller class sizes (which can very much be a curse rather than a blessing). But they won’t automatically be any better for your child than any other state school.

We should all be protesting and putting pressure on our politicians to fix the broken system for all rather than demonising parents who are just trying to do their best for their kids.

Hmm this is me. Live in small, scruffy house to send my kids to a decent local school, but also to live in a town I like, as schools can change. I was privately educated myself. Even in this area, my kids go to school with children who would never have been allowed to go to the school I went to, they kept out the children who needed more staff time due to behaviour or special needs. My kids aren’t getting the attention I did, but they are in a more varied peer group, which is a good thing, and the teachers are wonderful.

I remember the kids I was at school with making fun of the local school, feeling they were above working minimum wage jobs when they could get fancy work experience placements and the pressure I felt when my parents picked me up in the “wrong” car etc. I still see this attitude amongst the people I’m still in touch with even now we are 40. Granted, that’s just my experience, but I am not a believer in private education at all, I think all state schools should be better and feel very strongly that politicians are very happy to keep things the way they are, for obvious reasons.

Very true. The answer to this is not to stop those who can get their kids a better education from doing so. All that does in the long run is increase the number of kids coming out the other end of 13 years of compulsory education without having the academic and social grounding necessary to cope with adult life.

I felt the same about my son's fee-paying school. Most of the boys there came out with a good broad-based education including Modern Languages as well as the STEM subjects, all taught by specialists. If they'd been forced to go to some of our other local schools they would have had one language to GCSE level and a rotating cast of maths and science teachers, many of whom would not have had a maths or science degree.

We should be trying to increase standards, not forcing everybody down to the same low standard because that's all some people can have.

You mean 90% of the population .

The most highly rated state schools in the most middle class areas still have half the number of teachers per head of pupil on average than your average private school, and get 7K and not 15K per pupil.

And even the most oversubscribed state school will still have an intake of the most difficult to educate children - namely low achieving children on free school meals. Mainstream Private schools have NONE. Not one. Only 1% of private school bursaries cover 100% of fees, and they're never awarded to very low achieving children.

"If they'd been forced to go to some of our other local schools they would have had one language to GCSE level and a rotating cast of maths and science teachers, many of whom would not have had a maths or science degree."

We have a serious shortage of STEM teachers.

My son's comprehensive was surrounded by private schools with lavish facilities.

If you were a very well qualified STEM teacher and could take your pick of jobs, would you be teaching in a state school with classes of 30+ and poorly equipped labs, or would you go to the private school with classes of 16 and superbly equipped labs?

The existence of private schools is a cancer on the state sector. They deprive state schools of the best qualified teachers in shortage subjects, and they use the bursary system to strip academic, sporting and musical talent from state schools.

I absolutely understand those of you with kids in fee paying schools who feel the gross inequality of educational opportunity they represent is tolerable because it benefits your family. By why do you expect the rest of us to cheer your kids on as they trample over the backs of our kids in the race for the best university places and jobs?

The existence of private schools is shit for all kids except those who can access that privilege.

I’m not sure there should be any “high moral ground” taking. If an option is there to pay for a better choice, then people are going to do it.

But I do think VAT should be paid.

I don’t claim any moral high ground at all, as I sent my children to church schools because I thought they were better.

Countries where private education doesn’t exist seem to have brilliant education systems, and it would be better if we just had excellent schools for all.

My children are in their 30s now, and much has changed since then. London schools are a lot better than they were. However, I still think rather than demonising those who have done the best for their children however they could, we should all be pressuring politicians to improve state schools and to tackle the huge crisis in teacher retention. I don't just mean putting more money in.

When I was a child in the 60s and 70s teaching was a good, safe job with a decent salary and an excellent pension. Teachers were well-respected for the most part and had almost total autonomy in the classroom and very little scrutiny, so it was a high status job, albeit not one you went into to get rich. Put all of that together with the long holidays and it was a very attractive option for many graduates. A family with one full-time teacher parent and the other either a SAHM or (very often) a mother working part-time once her children were at school, increasing to full-time later on, could easily afford a nice house in a decent area and some sort of family holiday every year.

In the years since, teaching has become a far less attractive profession because salaries have fallen behind other professions, the pension scheme isn't what it was, early retirement is no longer an option for most, but also teachers have lost a great deal of that autonomy and now work under a huge amount of scrutiny. They are also not respected as they were. Both parents and children question thier authority (not all, but enough to make this a big problem). Discipline in some schools is also a big issue, which is another factor driving many teachers to leave the professional altogether.

I don't know how the government could solve all of this. They certainly can't do it quickly. But unless they try, that's what's causing the shortage of STEM and other teachers. The fact that it's generally easier teaching in private schools is not the main reason state schools have a shortage. People with STEM degrees can get far higher salaries in most other jobs and far better working conditions. The number who train as teachers and end up in private schools rather than state is a drop in the ocean.

Yes, see also paying vastly inflated house prices to live near superior state schools and paying for private tutors. I have absolutely no problem with either of these, but have encountered a real.blind spot from many people I know.

Some people who say ‘I just sent mine to the closest school and it was fine’ seem to think that is admirable. Not quite sure why. It is almost as if they feel are morally superior for not making an effort.

There is no school closer to us than my DC's private school
If I walk to the bottom of the road I can just about see the playing fields, it was one of the reasons we chose it AND for a variety of reasons our whole family is very much part fo our local community