To think you can’t take the moral high ground on private schools if….

[Loudcloud]

….. you moved to a particular area for good schools, and paid a premium on the property price to do so?

Surely both are using your finances to get your kid a better education?

You clearly have difficulty reading. Try and read my post again. I don’t say anything about private schools being of a higher quality than state schools.
I also say that private schools obviously contribute to inequality in society.
My point was purely about the old cliche that going to private schools (even the likes of Eton) gives you unfettered access and connections. It’s just rubbish. There’s so many other valid reasons to argue against private schools that it does your argument no favours.
I think the fact that you’ve completely misread my post just shows you are exactly the sort of person that is inflexible in thinking & who immediately jumps to the conclusion you wish to find. There’s literally no point in having a discussion online with you because you will always be right. Good luck in whatever wonderful country you’ve moved to (look like you’ve also got lots of time to spend on here arguing with strangers so enjoy!)

Too late to edit so add it here

@Burntt

Do you believe that PS parents who are pushed out to state sector will send their DC to your DD's school? and make it better? even if PSs are banned completely? or will they rather find an option to go to those two better schools thus pushing poorer families to your failing one? or home educate?

You see, I was forced to take my SEN DC from their private where they were thriving. Luckily I got grammar as a back up. We weren't planning to get that place, but hey ho. All it did to wider society is it took a place from another child whose parents couldn't afford private. Means that child will now go to comp in a grammar area. On the top of this the money saved on PS fees will now go to DC's housing deposit, uni etc, making inequality even worse.

Re connections - can I ask parents in very socially diverse schools if your DCs (secondary schools) form friendships significantly outside of your socio-economic group?

I don’t think any specific parent can fix systemic issues in their school. Of course we can’t affect funding or hiring or SEN provision. But I am also sure that I am leaving my children’s school better than how I found them. I was on the team that ran the fundraising for the primary school pta and started the first school library, created the nurture room for children who need a break, bought resources for the outside classroom, funded the forest school teacher training, and other similar things. We sent the whole school to the cinema - many of the children had never been to a cinema and they were so excited. It was lovely.

These are specific positive actions that took place in part because of me and other keen parents. Are these groundbreaking amazing things that will fix the school forever? Of course not. But every single child will benefit from them and they all foster opportunities for more relaxed, engaging, and creative learning.

Less clear examples in the high school ‘but’ I do have one. About 10 years ago there was a terrible tragedy in the school and a child died due to negligence. For years the community was promised a new high school building to avoid another disaster. Then the funding was taken away and a new high school built in an affluent area instead (am sure there were other reasons but this was inherently true). Our building is one of the oldest in the city and in a terrible state but the funding kept being promised and then delayed. Then Covid. Then post covid on and on and on. I started going to every single community council meeting and raising it. And showed up at the MPs office. And emailed. Many times. Many people. I got to a first name basis with some of them. And of course I couldn’t make it happen by myself but I didn’t let any of them forget about it. And the new building will open next year.

If every single parent with options took their kids out of our schools we’d have no one to fundraise from and no one to fight for these kids. As the previous poster said so well, when you’re fighting for your own life you can’t possibly take on anything else. And yes there’s plenty politicians and policies should be doing and a million ways children are failed every day, but I personally would find it too depressing to just give up and opt out. I hope I’m showing my kids how to fight for things too.

But of course I have no idea how they’d do in another environment as you can’t run experiments on your own kids. I’m sure there are lots of amazing things happening at the private schools here - I’ve heard about it from friends and work next door to one of them and it sounds amazing. But it wouldn’t be right for my family.

@nearlylovemyusername yes, my son doesn't even ask his friends where they live what their parents do or that type of thing. From what I hear ps kids are keen on figuring out the pecking order, the families I know who do private school are pretty obsessed with money

I’m not sure how to answer this but my kids have friends from a lot of different family situations. The catchment has areas from 2-10 on the SMID scale so looking purely at that and based on where I’ve dropped my daughter off or picked her up at friends houses I’d say she socialises across most of that range. I wouldn’t know the specifics of the families of course as high school friends are a mystery.

@PurpleThistle7 That sounds like a great PTA - but so much of the PTA activity very much depends on how much the Head and SLT allow the PTA to get involved with. It’s not just about the parents: if the Head doesn’t want to engage with or support the PTA (as was the case in one school DD was at), then the PTA won’t be able to do much either.

That's not my experience at all.

There were huge differences wealth wise in PS my DC attended (we were by very far the poorest ones), but socially/culturally we were all the same, despite being very international community. My DCs best friends had bedrooms larger than our entire flat, this didn't matter at all as we (families) were interested in the same things, discussed the same events, read the same books etc.

My experience so far is that in socially diverse environments people tend to gravitate to their own group and as kids get older, they will chose friendships with people from similar social backgrounds with similar interests, I don't mean bank balance. So I'm not convinced that this tale about connections made in PS stands, those connections would be made in any way.

Speaking as someone who lives in an expensive leafy suburb and whose kids attend the local comp, I'd say that this debate shouldn't ever have become about which individuals inhabit the moral high ground. We all do the best we can for our kids, as far as our pockets permit and in line with our beliefs and values.

But politically, I am against private schooling. Not against the pupils there, or their parents, but against how it entrenches inequality. I wouldn't abolish them but I would be working towards reducing their role in public life.

Similarly, I support the VAT not because I want to penalise wealthy parents, but because we are in a tough economical place and I think it's fairer to claw back there rather than benefits, public services etc.

I don't think that's hypocritical. I do wish we could have these discussions without everyone getting so defensive and personal. We are all making ethical compromises the whole time, aren't we?

@Ketzele the best way to get rid of them would be to make them unnecessary. The way to go that is to pump billions into state and accept that it will take decades to turn around the numerous factors that cause people to opt for private. The VAT is not going to make one iota of difference, and is causing children (and it doesn't matter how few or many) to have to leave stable and thriving placements. The only way to raise that sort of revenue is general taxation. A tiny proportion of the population (most of whom are not uber wealthy, just on half decent professional salaries) should not be expected to pay even more above the tax they are already paying for a service they don't use whilst those that do use it are not being asked to do the same.

There are have been so many threads on this, so many posts from people explaining that they chose private out of desperation and really struggle to fund it (not just one fewer holiday). If the VAT would fix the issues in state then there would be an argument for it, but it won't and it's not even a "step in the right direction"..the money isn't ring fenced and even it were, equates to less than half a teacher per school.

Sounds like you have very limited experience of private school then. The majority, certainly outside the SE, are not like that at all.

Except the court case has forced the government to admit that they knew from the start that VAT wouldn’t raise any money at all. This was never a fiscal policy.

Mine were at Private secondary BUT I can answer that question relating to their State Primary.
My DC did have some minor variation in friends across socio economic groups but in the main they were certainly "people like us". Not so much in regards to wealth but more with regards to values and behaviour.
I neither encouraged nor discouraged any friendships for my DC, they just naturally gravitated towards kids who they had things in common with, interestingly for DS that was largely kids from Asian heritage families for some reason. There were some exceptions but in the main the kids at the school arranged themselves into friendship groups that represented their backgrounds

@nearlylovemyusernameno I don’t think anyone with funds for private school would choose my dd school. Our town has very few school places so there is a good chance they would be allocated it though. I’ve met some home Ed families who are doing so while on waiting lists for school. Our council must waste so much money on school transport as so many kids are allocated school far enough away from their home they qualify for school transport. To my knowledge two schools have been extended to take more children and both were in the nicer parts of town with the more expensive housing.

Just had a look on Rightmove and to move into the closest outlying village with a good school catchment I would have to loose a bedroom an pay and extra £100000 for the cheepest house that is in need of modernisation. The only other two houses for sale are £500000. The only rental option there is £1650 a month. So that’s 4 houses available in that village. In my town the cheapest rental is £1200. Closest private school is not in the town and has fees of £8k a term. No parent who can afford such fees will be living close to the schools in town- they would take one of the 4 houses in the village. Maybe that would push some of the middle wage people out of that school but they would be able to afford a house in a different local village that are out of the price range of most people

This is my experience as well and my point exactly.
You remove private schools but people will still form friendships and relationships with "people like them", it won't change anything

My husband and I earn a decent living and we live in a bigger house. My son’s best friends are

• a very well off child of a banker and a scientist who lives in a massive house
• A child with a single parent whose father died by suicide a few years ago. He lives in a 2 bedroom flat with 6 people
• a child of a blended family with a taxi driver and a min wage worker for parents. Living in a small flat and sharing a room with his sister
• A child of Palestinian refugees with many children and a single mother. To be fair we have never had this child to our house nor has my son been there. Not because I’m opposed, but because the mother doesn’t speak English and I haven’t been able to figure out how to make her feel comfortable about it. The boys play together at school every day.

Minus the last boy who I’m trying to build a better relationship with (we are Jewish and I’m slightly worried that’s a problem), these kids are all into and out of all our houses regularly. They play together all the time. They represent the full spectrum of financial situations at the school and only two of them have parents from the same country. The one boy didn’t speak a word of English last year. So no, I don’t believe that children just find people with the same family they have at all.

@NuUN

"My point was purely about the old cliche that going to private schools (even the likes of Eton) gives you unfettered access and connections. It’s just rubbish."

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323125454_Old_Boy_Networks_The_Relationship_between_Elite_Schooling_Social_Capital_and_Positions_of_Power_in_British_Society

There's not actually a lot of evidence from research, but there absolutely is a reasonable argument that having a network of connections with people in positions of power over hiring and finance increases the likelihood of obtaining a job or work through these connections.

I went to Private school, I made precisely zero contacts that helped with my career.
We all had a nice holiday once staying with a friend who had moved to France but I am sure that could happen from State school
I suppose if you go to one of a small number od Private Schools in The South and go into Banking or similar there MAY be people from the same school who can help you but I don't think an Old Boys network applies to most of us

There is a lack of contemporary empirical evidence for a reason. Yes, there are statistics which list the % of judiciary, politicians etc that are private educated vs the % of the country but I think that the old school tie networks have way less influence over the last 20 years than they used to, and also there are lots of other factors that will come in to play. The link is not a simple one of causation.
So I don’t think there is “reasonable argument” in both my opinion and in my experience. There are lots of much better sticks to beat private schools with!

I agree..far more correlation than direct causation. I don't think schools that end at 3pm (or earlier..two in our town end at 2.45) is a good preparation for the sort of jobs that require a totally different "no clocking off" approach. Law, the City, medicine etc require you to just work until the job is done. Private secondary schools often run til past 4, with many kids staying til 6 for activities, sometimes Saturday school. Boarders can have extra sessions in the evening. By 6th form age, kids should not be done by 3pm. Again, not for a minute saying you cannot do those jobs from state..of course you can and many do, but an awful lot of self determination and motivation is needed..with PS the more demanding structure is there so those that may have drifted don't and the longer day is normal.