The US ultra-right should leave the UK alone!!!

[StandFirm]

I was going to use a rude expletive in the thread title to truly reflect my thoughts on this. I've known about this insidious creeping influence for a little while but reading the article in the link below has made me livid. We are not going to be censored by foreign actors who understand nothing about our culture. I have often observed a false sense of familiarity among Brits regarding American culture but it goes both ways, and this attempt at dragging us along into the dark pit of ignorance should stay the fuck away from here:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2025/apr/14/librarians-in-uk-increasingly-asked-to-remove-books-as-influence-of-us-pressure-groups-spreads

Whatever the excesses of the hard left, bigots of any kind should not be given the time of day. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I am well aware of Romeo and Juliet being a tragedy thank you. I have taught it for many years. That doesn’t stop how some people see it. It also can be seen as glamorising gang violence.

But my actual point was that the graphic novel in question doesn’t celebrate self-harm. Just as The Bell Jar doesn’t celebrate mental health issues and Lord of the Flies doesn’t celebrate bullying and murder of a peer because they’re a bit different. People in the UK rarely complain about ‘classic’ texts even when they cover the same/similar issues as the modern texts they do complain about. For example there are complaints about The Hate U Give and Noughts and Crosses due to violence but not Romeo and Juliet or Macbeth. And so on and so forth.

I completely agree with you @BlossomBlanket.

The left have form for censorship as much as the right and IMO are just different cheeks of the same arse. It's nothing to do with a culture war.

I'm sick of both of them and their idiotic inability to cope with any views that differ from their own, often narrow opinions 😒

Not new, either.

MN what is going on with hyperlinks?

No I don't. That's besides the point though. Are you claiming that the ultra right in the USA aren't transphobic, racist & misogynist?

But not every woman agrees with this interpretation.
Book complaints are not just about trans issues though.
We’ve had complaints about teaching texts with ghosts in (somewhat problematic) for example.
In the US one of the most banned books is And Tango Makes Three - a delightful story about penguins based on actual penguin behaviour.

I was referring to Maga, obviously.

I'd argue that banning X would be a strongly unacceptable infringement of free speech. But we can disagree on acceptable vs unacceptable.

My understanding of your use of 'free speech' was that it wasn't infringed by banning media that are unregulated and have wide reach (they were the criteria you explained were key). You then said banning X was justified because it is damaging (but perhaps that wasn't part of your definition of free speech, so apologies if I wrongly inferred that). The clear implication of the criteria you gave is that free speech is the freedom to speak on well-regulated fora with small or moderate reach. I think that's way too restricted.

I think you might have responded to the wrong quote.

I'm not talking about books in this post.

I'm talking about women's genuine concerns being silenced by calling them transphobes or bigots.

All for wanting single sex spaces and sports for fairness, safety and dignity.

Those are not unreasonable things for women and girls to want you know.

The failure to listen to the needs of groups of people by the 'left', in this case female humans will inevitably lead to the rise of populism. I can see it happening in this country too with Farage/ Reform.

Not to dismiss concerns over the trans lobby (which I think has done a great disservice to trans people by the way), the alternative IS WORSE.

Would you like our daughters to be PURGED out of their chosen careers by this lot? Would you like them to no longer have access to family planning, contraception, decent healthcare? To higher education? Would you like them to desperately look for a male provider from their school days because they can't provide for themselves or their children? Would you like them to be abused at the discretion of said male providers because the ones they do find may not be decent blokes (great if they are - many of my own ancestors sound like they were decent blokes but I have an issue with power resting with only one person in the marriage)? Would you like them to have representation? Some of the fuckers across the Pond think giving us the right to vote was a mistake. I could go on. Don't be blinded to the very real threat because a few idiots tried to deny that biology is a sensitive topic.

My implication was that free speech is the freedom to speak in fora that are well regulated and/or have small reach. It doesn’t have to be both.

If the reach is massive, there should be regulations. That’s why broadcast media is regulated very heavily in the U.K., and rightly so IMO.

You're missing the point.

Of course I'm angry about Trump.

I'm angry that a set of circumstances arose that led him to be elected. He should have been unelectable.

It is a good idea for the Democratic party and all other democratic political parties to look at the circumstances that led to Trump being elected. Some self reflection of things they could have handled differently is required.

This includes the fact that women and girls are rightfully pissed off that they were called bigots by the left for wanting spaces free from males.

I worry for the longevity of democracy as a political system if parties continue to fail to consider these things.

Amen to that!
John Locke (I believe it was him) said there can be no freedom without law. That principle applies here.
(In reply to @jewelcase )

There have always been debates about what books and material should be in the public domain. Lady Chatterleys lover is the most obvious cautionary example, but I wonder how much more sensitive material is produced now. As a pp said, we need a proper breakdown of what books are prompting who to remove what from where. A book promoting boys’ dream of becoming female was specifically mentioned, with no reference to the issues this is creating for women. I once complained about the inclusion of rape as entertainment in a library and was shut down.

I’m surprised there are any librarians left in the public domain though, probably they’re using the casual shorthand of any library staff is a librarian. Nowadays that is minimum wage work, if you’re lucky, or voluntary. Public libraries are increasingly seen as a plaster for deprived areas even while government policies promote more and more deprivation. That’s more of an issue than knee jerk reactions to the fact that we have a common language with the US and it is much bigger than we are. Libraries are not funded to hold these kind of debates.

Obviously 2 wrongs don't make a right, but as another politically homeless centre lefty there is something delicious about The Graun chucking it's rattle out of the pram over this after they've supported the lefts censorship for years😂

And you're still wrong!

How can you say "first they came for the trans" when they have actually removed many women's right to a safe and legal abortion? What have trans people lost, exactly? The right for people like Lia Thomas to compete in women's sports?

Trump didn’t win because of the Democrats stance on trans rights.

If you want a debate about a specific misogynistic influence from the US then I suggest you limit your op to that @StandFirm.

IMO they are both as much a threat as each other and both seek to control women.

I hear your point and PPs as well. I still think it's a threat that should be highlighted before it's allowed to fester too much.

And yes, the Dems clearly have a lot of work to do re messaging and representing a sensible way forward. Just let's not minimise what's going on now. I also think this is much bigger than a left/right divide. I get on really well with some Republicans - just happen to loathe the MAGA, toxic doomsday preaching crowd.

It played a part according to the political analysis I've seen.

“. I get on really well with some Republicans - just happen to loathe the MAGA, toxic doomsday preaching crowd.”

So you’re one of the people bringing US politics here then?

Yes politics is rather bigger than simple binary divisions.

I am not about to censor posters on a thread I've started about censorship.

Onto Freedom of Speech though, we've had cancelling of all sorts under the left and rewriting of history in some cases. Statues and art defaced because we in the 21st Century object to things that happened in previous century.

I don't feel comfortable with erasing history just because we wouldn't do things that way now.

We learn from history.

There is censorship, and then there is consideration and selection of material. You seem to be concerned about misogynistic movements from Trump and Musk more than libraries. You might get further with that on its own. Agreeing a boundary about what Britain’s culture can’t support might be an easier place to start (typo corrected) than starting by screaming about responsibilities of library staff.

Incidentally that’s the fine line - censorship v selection - that librarians used to tread, back when there were any.