To want to be fluent in a second language?

[Jelliots]

Has anyone successfully learnt a second language as an adult from scratch without actually moving to that country? Can it be done?

im Duolingo level at the moment but as soon as I try to watch anything in my chosen language im totally lost! I’ve nearly finished the Duolingo course so clearly it’s not going to cut it! What else could I do? Can’t afford private lessons

Mumbling is such a classic thing for French men of a certain age 😅

There was a lady on the radio who said duolingo is great to give a bit of back up but if you don’t listen to people talking in the language, read eg kids’ books in the language and chat to people/ speak out loud regularly in the language it doesn’t do much. She teaches Spanish, German and Italian and is a translator and she says she knows countless people who finish duolingo and then go for classes

Spanish to a good level, but I did live there for 6 months. Start doing holidays etc in your chosen country, languages exchanges etc. Totally doable

How do you get the phonetics lessons? My Spanish is a decent level but my accept is not so good

Not all course are expensive. You could try your local sixth form college. They may offer evening language courses open to everyone and they would be inexpensive. Also try https://sial.courses/

The accent is the hardest thing to get. It does require specialised training. All of the other areas of a language (grammar, vocabulary, idioms and general written expression) you can achieve a very high level....

For phonetics lessons, you have to search for a specialised tutor online. There are a few apps for this - one of these is 'Super Prof' but there are others.

I only really know about French. The professors I mentioned (Michel Billiers, Christophe Patris, and Cheryl Demhearter) do offer online lessons, but I think they are very oversubscribed. This doesn't mean that you can't get a session though.

There will also be native speakers who are PHD students in phonetics and/or general linguistics at various universities in the UK. It's worth looking into whether someone like this would offer private sessions for an agreed fee.

Thanks. I’d love to at some point but probs expensive. I’m understood and can stay with Spanish friends and be fully funcional in Spanish but a good accent would be the icing.

You are right, in French. In Spanish it would have a subjunctive:

No habría reservado un billete de vuelta si hubiera sabido que iba a conocer a toda esta gente maravillosa y a pasármelo tan bien aquí.

French uses the subjunctive less than Spanish, and Dutch doesn't have a subjunctive at all. But German does (in this case, the relevant bit would be "wenn ich gewusst hätte"). I'm guessing Italian might be like Spanish.

But this discussion kind of illustrates my point: This stuff is hard, and you aren't really "fluent" until you have absorbed things that you don't need to think about in your own language. This is much easier to do when it's around you every day, in my experience.

It can be expensive, but the cheaper options are just to watch phonetics tutorials on Youtube/language learning websites (there will be lots out there for Spanish as it's such a commonly learned language), and do some of the phonetics exercises, listen and repeat.

Contacting a PHD student might also be a cheaper option; they'll charge less than a qualified professor, and they'll still have a lot of expertise.

There's still also a lot of value in just meeting up with native speakers and practising speaking, just paying a bit more attention to their accents, the rhythm of the languages, and trying to imitate as much as possible.

I’m thinking of Hyltenstam primarily, but the whole ultimate attainment field really…..
As you say, it is the assumption that fluent = near native level competence that is the big issue really when it comes to people’s willingness to put themselves out there and USE foreign languages. The almost ideological way in which MFL teaching has traditionally positioned grammatical accuracy as the sole measure of learner ability. It makes people believe they must assess themselves using an impossible to achieve measure!

I feel you need immersion. I'm bilingual, and now that I haven't spoken the second language in so long I'm not even fluent anymore. I'd pick it up easy enough if I went to the country after a fee weeks, but even speaking it randomly now I struggle

Im studying Japanese and am using a mix of text books, flash cards, an online course on audible and I am also doing a distance learning course with a tutor.

I like having the different options for study. Some days I use the audio course, some days I use the books and flash cards

Try Paul Noble's beginners Italian on audible. I have the Japanese version and it's really good.

Have a look online at sample GCSE Italian exam papers - there’s 2 levels of difficulty, foundation and higher tier, but these give you a structure to work towards across the 4 language skills listening reading speaking writing. Once you’re at comfortable higher tier level that’s decent and you’ll be at slow pace conversational level. Agree Coffee Break Italian podcasts are fantastic as well, lessons and magazine type articles, all broken down into language learning. Really paints a picture of the people, countryside, history etc. Have fun!

You will be able to have conversations if you practice having conversations.

I also recommend Easy Italian on YouTube. Katie became fluent in Italian by moving there & immersing herself & has a lot of useful insights & suggestions.

I’ve learned several other languages as an adult by going to language classes and get to a reasonable level but haven’t managed to become fluent in any because I just don’t have the opportunity to use the languages often enough.

i did all of mine through actual classes (personal preference - I tried apps but didn’t take to that style of learning). For example, London-based CityLit does both in-person classes and some online. I also do things like watch TV programmes and YouTube videos in the languages to build up broader vocabulary. I find that with each language I try, I get to a point where I can understand it pretty well. Where I struggle then is not being able to speak with any degree of fluency - and this is where the lack of opportunity to practice comes in. Like you OP, I try to go to the countries I’ve learned one/twice a year, but even then, the opportunity to practice is limited to basic tourist conversation. I’d love the opportunity to go for a month and really immerse myself to build up that speaking experience, but work and financial restrictions make that impossible.

Keep up your efforts though, language is a great skill to have. And ignore the pedants here who criticise the slightest grammar errors! You should find in the real world that even when you make a mistake people still understand what you are trying to say and appreciate your effort.

I agree about podcasts. Easy to listen as you potter about. For more beginner learners the Coffee Break podcasts are good as you can choose the appropriate level.

I think you need immersion to be able to understand the language as well as speaking it.

I knew I was going to move to Italy (met and married DH who is from Milan). I spent a year before doing intensive lessons but when I got there it was like I hadn’t more than some basic Duolingo phrases 😂

Im fluent now but only because I lived there for three years and nobody spoke English to me. PIL hadn’t a word of English and only some of DHs friends felt comfortable with their level of English to speak to me.

I often joke that I learned through osmosis but if I hadn’t lived there and been fully immersed, I wouldn’t be fluent.

To some extent the level of teaching / immersion etc you need will depend on your innate linguistic ability - your ear for accent and pronunciation, your processing speed, your memory for vocab, your ability to get the grammar etc. Not everyone will need immersion to gain a pretty good level of fluency, just as the level attained by GCSE or A Level in school will vary widely between students.

Within a month of arriving in Italy I was living in an intentional community where not a single person spoke English. I remember going to bed at 8 every evening because I couldn't join in the conversation around the fire. But it's certainly a fast way to learn- I was fluent within 18 months.

@crackofdoom yes it’s exhausting. I had about a 2 hour limit when with big groups then I’d have to retreat.

Even now after 3 or 4 hours straight I have to stop listening because my brain gets tired 😂

My DH learnt Arabic. But he did intensive training to learn them - 18 months. His job paid for it and he didn’t do any immersion training.

I have colleagues who have learnt Italian or French in six months - but it is a full time ‘job.’ In comparison, I’ve been ‘learning’ Russian for about ten years now and can pretty much only say ‘I want a beer’ and ‘where’s the exit’

It’s eminently doable to learn an easy language in a year or so, you just have to really commit and tbh much easier if you can have private classes or work in a role where your employer will pay.

My mum leart Italian in her late 60s.

I speak French, and have picked up German again, and also finished Arabic on Duolingo.

Duolingo is brilliant for a revision guide and a daily exposure. You then should find yourself a Netflix series to watch in the language, using English subtitles to begin with then the spoken language when you become more competent.

Some kids programs are better in terms of vocab and slower speech!

It also then helps to find a native to speak to regularly or go to a weekly class.

I started teaching myself Italian six years ago, did Duolingo, read lots of Italian websites, went to Italy, have an Italian friend, go to an Italian conversation class once a week, listen to lots of opera 🤣 - I can translate written material really well now, but I can still barely speak a sentence. I suspect full immersion is the only way to spoken fluency unfortunately. But do keep it up, it's brilliant to be able to watch Il Gattopardo without (much) recourse to subtitles.