To want to be fluent in a second language?

[Jelliots]

Has anyone successfully learnt a second language as an adult from scratch without actually moving to that country? Can it be done?

im Duolingo level at the moment but as soon as I try to watch anything in my chosen language im totally lost! I’ve nearly finished the Duolingo course so clearly it’s not going to cut it! What else could I do? Can’t afford private lessons

It depends on what do you mean by "learn" and (especially) "fluent".

Do you want to be able to have full, substantial adult conversations with people? For example, do you want to be able to say something like "I wouldn't have booked a return ticket if I'd known that I was going to meet all you great people and have such a wonderful time here, but I'm sorry, I have to go home now", with the conditional and the subjunctive correct? Or would it be sufficient to say "Thanks everyone, but I must leave now", with everything in the present indicative?

Do you want to be able to watch a gritty TV series that has a lot of swearing without subtitles? What about a rom-com? Or the TV news?

Do you want to be able to read a novel without looking up more than one word every 20 pages? How about every 5 pages? Every two paragraphs?

Basically, what's your endgame? And how committed are you to it, really?

I ask because I speak four foreign languages with differing degrees of fluency, all of them acquired by spending 2/5/10/20 years in another country. Acquiring true fluency — the kind where you don't have to think — is hard, and requires lots of time, whether you prefer to learn by osmosis or by bashing away at the grammar books. I am properly fluent in two of the four languages, but not for the ones where I spent less than 6 or 7 years in the country. Forcing yourself to do it in an English-speaking country is going to be hard. Getting a partner from that country is the best shortcut if you can't move there!

Having a lover who's a native speaker is supposed to be good for your accent too. Also, working as a sales person.

I have two languages I'm good at - one I was pretty fluent and because it's really uncommon for foreigners to learn it, when people met me they asked if I was born there, and on the phone they asked "is your mum in?" It would be in FSI category 4 (it's not on the list but is in the same language family as one on there).

The other I learned in classes and had some tourist visits but it's a lot closer to English. It's in the FSI category 1. I've never lived there though.

I am, without sounding boastful, pretty good at language learning and also at English grammar.

I learnt Spanish as an adult and would consider my self fluent but that's only because I went and lived there for 5 years. I started like you I suppose, practicing with Duolingo and reading online newspapers and trying to understands songs/films but after 2 years it was apparent that progress had totally plateaued and I wasn't going to get any further without investing serious time and money.

My mother learnt Spanish as an adult and took a GCSE evening course which she passed but she is a far way from fluent.

I also have no idea why anyone would vote 'unreasonable' here.

Ah that’s really good. When I did my language degree, the English students had to teach themselves grammar before they could actually start learning the language. I’m teaching myself a second language now and this would be impossible for me to do on my own if I hadn’t already learned a language at university.

People learn in different ways. Immersion is probably the best way short of "sleeping with a dictionary" (i.e. finding a partner who is a native speaker) but there are lots of fun ways of gaining exposure to another language.

If you find Duolingo and other formal courses are too rigid (and boring) try looking on YouTube for familiar programmes in different languages - e.g The Simpsons or Bob the Builder in German, Italian or whatever ... simple episodes that are easy to follow, visual and that use everyday language. The internet has thousands of radio stations, so have a foreign music channel on in the background and pick up vocabulary from the songs and from the news bulletins, weather forecasts, traffic reports etc. And of course, use any and every opportunity to speak with a native speaker if you bump into someone - e.g. a school mum, restaurant waiter, work colleague or neighbour.

It’s comments like this which put people off learning languages. The wild obsession with 100% accurate grammar is a huge part of the reason why a large majority of monolingual British speakers of English either say they’re rubbish at languages, leading to people becoming so disillusioned that they switch into defence mode and say don’t see the point in learning another language.

There is research showing that it’s effectively not possible to become completely fluent in a language learned as an adult. This is good news. What IS possible is to be able to learn a language to a level whereby you can participate in a wide range of conversations and discussions, and understand a wide variety of spoken and written texts.

Living in the country is likely the easiest way, but not always possible, of course. I can highly recommend MeetUp language groups or other similar conversation groups as they will give you the chance to practise communicating with others.

Grammar learning plays a part, of course, and a decent grammar book with exercises is always a good complement to other forms of learning.

But it is a grave and sad mistake to fall into the trap of thinking that perfect grammar is a prerequisite for using a new language. It is not. It really is not.

Having spoken to people who used to teach Welsh, quite a few recommended watching children's television. It makes sense to start from the beginning, because children pick up language through early years TV and books, as well as conversation.

Also, having the confidence to try out speaking your second language as an adult is an enormous help. This is the bit that I struggle with! I find it easier to write in it, but I always check with Welsh speakers first, because the grammar is fiendishly difficult!

Good luck!

Ok on second thoughts I think it’s unrealistic to expect to become completely fluent in Italian without actually living there.

I have no desires to pass myself off as a native Italian but I do want to be able to hold a conversation in Italian

You can get to that level for sure op! I have faith in you :)

Are you a member of any clubs or associations that might have Italian equivalents? (Like I dunno if you are involved with RSPB or Rotary or Guiding or choirs or Amnesty or Quakers or a particular sport, or interest etc etc etc?) Maybe you can make contact with an equivalent organisation and see if anyone there would like to do a Zoom language exchange or something.

Allora, vai in Italia!!

(And just to be that annoying/ helpful person, it's "Vorrei parlare Italiano").

I'm a big believer in full immersion (she says, watching Deutschland 83 and googling all the useful words 😆)

I did a degree in languages, but don't get to speak them often these days. I find listening to podcasts good.

I'm using Duolingo for a new language I start learning for work but then no longer needed. I also have an occasional conversation class with a native. I'm really sceptical about the value of Duolingo if you're not also making time to learn the language some other way.

I've been learning French for over 40 years, teach it, and lived there for three months twice in my 20s but I still wouldn't really count myself as completely fluent!! I can speak and understand well but still would struggle to watch a fast-speaking film without (French) subtitles or read a novel without having to look up words.

It is absolutely possible to attain a good conversational level in a language you started as an adult. But you definitely can't do it on Duolingo. You need proper lessons and/or lots of exposure to the language and opportunities to speak it and listen to it.

Is it expensive to learn online?

Language teacher here. I teach French, German and Spanish. I only started learning Spanish when I was in my 40s and got myself to A Level standard. Imo doing tons and tons of listening is the key. That is the main way you learn when you go and live in a country. Listening helps with everything- comprehension, sentence structure, pronunciation, everything except spelling really.

My favourite way to learn Spanish was through podcasts and audiobooks. Started with beginner podcasts and moved up to intermediate. I listened to Spanish Audible versions if English books I knew really really well (I started with the whole Harry Potter series ). You can slow it right down. This was my favourite way to learn!

I didn't really need to do much to learn the grammar, as I'm a linguist and find that side of language easy, but it's a good idea to get a grammar book or find a website where you can practise grammar exercises, especially for the tenses.

My son worked overseas a lot of Spanish spoken at work and socially. As well as normal study, you tube Etc friends gave him Spanish newspapers and said read them every day.

So start reading would be my advice.

Italian broadsheet newspapers....why use one word when four will do?! 😬

I agree with you in principle, but there is quite a gulf between a fundamental misunderstanding of basic points of grammar and an obsession with 100% accuracy. You need a reasonable level of accuracy in order to be intelligible and if someone were to say to me, "I would like she speaks Italianish" I probably wouldn't understand what they meant.

Or, to put it another way, you need to master the basics if you're aiming for fluency, even if there are errors.

I'm currently doing an evening class with a tutor whose first language is Spanish and, although his English is generally very good (probably C2), I find the grammar and pronunciation mistakes really distracting when I'm trying to take in the fairly complex content he's teaching.

I spent time with a French family a few years ago and my goodness that was hard work, because I was missing all the context. Plus one of the men mumbled terribly.

I think duolingo is great, I’m learning 5 languages on it. Unfortunately the Italian course on duo is surprisingly short compared to French for example and will only take you to A2 level. Some people start using busuu once they get to the dreaded daily refresh. Total fluency is really hard though. I’ve been learning French for 30 years plus 2 years living in France and I wouldn’t be able to convince a French person I was born in France. However I can speak it with relevant ease and understand about 95 percent and this is probably possible for most people. Duolingo estimates it would take about 700 to 800 hours to get good at a language. There are lots of Italian resources on audible that I listen to and I also have a teacher on preply who only charged £4 a lesson.

Sorry to be a pain, but where is the subjunctive in your example?

In French I'd say something like:

J'aurais pas reservé un ticket aller et retour si j'avais su que j'allais faire la connaissance de tous ces gens sympatiques et passer un tel bon moment entre vous, mais malheureusement il me faut rentrer chez moi maintenant.

(I'm a bit rusty, so there may be errors, but I don't see a subjunctive construction.)

If you go there every year why not do a language course while you are there? They’re not cheap, but are very good. Learning in the actual country is so good.

I teach french (also speak Italian, used to be fluent) and I find duolingo gives a strange basis. I’m teaching a couple of beginners that have done duolingo and it hasn’t given them much. Just a random vocabulary, it seems. Although it’s good for hearing the words. But they all say they feel that they’ve progressed much more having lessons. And not meaning to be rude, but the mistake you made in what you wrote just backs that up -it hasn’t given you an understanding of how to use the language. But stick at it. The desire to learn it is a huge positive.

I speak several languages including Italian.

I have learned most of the languages I speak living in the country BUT you can obviously learn a language without moving abroad. To do that though you need to integrate as much of that language into your daily life.

With kids it’s known that ideally they should listen or be exposed to the language at least 50% of the time, on a daily basis, but for adults I would say there is probably much more exposure needed.

Swap your Netflix to Italian. Not English with Italian subtitles. Italian with Italian subtitles. Why? Because you can guess most of what happens and is said in a movie based on what you see, and by hearing and reading the same sentences all of the time in similar scenarios you will pick them up very quickly.
Start by your favorite movies and series to ease you up if you prefer but don’t fall into the trap of listening to things in one language while reading in an other because your brain will focus on what you already know (your own language) and you will pick up very little.So Italian voice over with Italian subtitles. Read books in Italian, start by books for kids and then move up little by little, also buy yourself an Italian cookbook in Italian and get into the habit of learning to follow recipes in Italian, translate what you don’t know and then you will see how quickly you learn all the vocabulary linked to food and cooking, go to language exchange meetings or find your local Italian expat community and ask if some would let you practice. Give yourself daily challenges, learn new vocabulary daily, give yourself random excercise such as “research and do a presentation about a historical figure” you don’t need a public it’s about you learning to collect information in Italian, you reading about specific topics in Italian, writing about them and learning to speak and pronounce the words. Ideally find a tandem partner an Italian who would love to learn English properly so you can both correct each other.

Pretty much just integrate Italian to your everyday life & even get into the habit of naming things in Italian for yourself be it going through the word in Italian for each item of clothing you are wearing, food your are eating, item you are buying.

Learning a language late in life isn’t impossible but it does require dedication and quite a lot of repetitive work.

@Tootjaskoot There is research showing that it’s effectively not possible to become completely fluent in a language learned as an adult.

Could you please post a link to that research? Because 'fluency' means different things, and there's also the fact that 'fluent' does not mean 'native'. You can't be a native speaker unless you were born speaking that language, or you lived in the country from a very young age (probably 10 or below).