To think people who stay in abusive relationships long-term and expose their kids to it are complicit in harming them?

[WildHazelCritic]

We all say “they need support” and they do but if someone stays with an abuser for years while their kids witness the chaos, doesn’t that cross into neglect? AIBU to think sympathy has limits?

It is deeply complicated. My FIL has been abusive towards my MIL in every way possible. These days their kids would be taken from them as you children because of things my FIL subjected his children to and the fact that MIL wouldn’t leave but things are very different now. MIL doesn’t even seem to love him but she has redefined love to another meaning and she feels that love for him. It is very very dysfunctional and toxic.

So no one protects the children and no one has a responsibility to protect the children?

People are saying this is how it is, not how it should be

When I left I had so much faith in the system to keep me and my children safe. The police were actually great, the doctors and health care professionals were great, I could afford decent lawyers and had letters from school backing up my concerns.

But cafcass have an agenda to push contact at almost any cost.

Saying how what is? That no one currently has a responsibility to care for children but it would be nice someday if they did?

It is incredibly tricky. As PPs have said, abusive parents often get at least some access to their children and some do great harm to their children, including in some cases murder. The law often isn’t particularly good at protecting children in those circumstances. So I can understand why a mother might stay to prevent children having to be alone with the abusive parent at least until children are older and better able to protect themselves.

I remember the majority of posters seeing it from your point of view and taking your side!
But I may be suffering confirmation bias; I was rolling my eyes at the posters expecting you to sacrifice yourself endlessly for someone who was slandering you.

Oh I definitely had mostly supportive comments but I was surprised at the sheer number of people who told me that I should have ignored cruel behaviour because effectively abuse victims aren’t capable of true cruelty. Wasn’t expecting that.

Bought it, read it in one sitting. What a book. I'll think of it when my kids wake me after not enough sleep.

Another issue with this analogy is that it is a crime to steal and citizens are protected by laws against theft but the equivelent legal protection against violence at the hands of your partner does not exist in law or in practicality in many countries. So even if you leave and do all the "right things" you will not necessarily be protected by police or legal systems and your children are likely to be sent back into the care of their abusive father (or mother).

You are right, but most people can't easily leave their situation. Having multiple children once you're in the situation though is negligence.

This is why I will never get the tantrums over 'I wanna baby and I want one now!'' with absolutely no thought for the child growing from the cute baby phase into their own person as long as the 'baby' satisfies the parents need that is all that seems to matter either this or they put sex before anything else, no wonder why social services will never vanish, children seem disposable to some, I do wonder if there was more threat of criminal charges or a threat of benefits removal would make a difference but sadly no it would only harm the children more, yes people should have a license and a full medical and mental health assessment before having children, they are a privilege not a right,

Anyone who allows harm to come to a child should be jailed and not all this pat some parents on the head ''oh we need to understand their choices they are not to blame'' maybe parents should stop putting their own needs first? we constantly hear ''I have a right to have a baby what about my rights'' never hear the rights of the child

And having children should not be a hobby

That if, as a mother, you leave an abusive relationship, you are likely to find that your children are forced to spend time with their abusive father even when they make disclosures, even when their school confirm they have made disclosures to them, when when you have doctors and police reports that corroborate your story

Cafcass have a real agenda of not caring about abuse when it comes to separated parents, and pushing for shared care despite heaps of evidence this isn't suitable

Countless women have told this story on Mumsnet and elsewhere, yet still it is somehow our fault.

I did the right thing and left, only to discover I couldn't keep my children safe from their dad because cafcass didn't care.

Sometimes you get to control who gets access to your kids by staying. If you leave and abusive parent gets unsupervised contact with kids, it could put them at more risk. Every case is complex and different. It would be nice to think this is uncommon. In a perfect world the courts would work in domestic abuse victims favour but it doesn't happen as much as it should. Victims aren't believed.

I don't think it's comparable to preventing burglary in the least... Domestic abuse is completely centered around loss of agency and having full control over another person by messing with their mind, their money, their parenting, their body, their relationships.

The other issue of course is that if you have no money, and no refuge spaces are available and you've been cut off from your family and friends- where would you go? Where would you stay? If you have no qualifications or experience in work If you've been a SAHP how would you find a job that would pay enough to make ends meet? How long do you think your estranged friends/ family would put you and 2 or 3 kids up on their sofa? What if your kids are too big for you to carry but they don't want to leave their dad (as many don't) do you leave them behind or do you stay to try and protect them?

You're over simplifying a very complex situation. Women usually do want to help themselves- it's just that they feel utterly utterly trapped.

Not they’re removing children from violent homes. And I’m against child removal in general and in favour of a system that makes it easier for women and children to escape abuse. But in the instances that after many chances and support parents still insist on keeping DC in a violent home they MUST be removed.

Another thing and I cannot say for sure that it is the same in the UK but it probably is, you get barring orders, safety orders etc in Civil court not criminal court so a woman who has been harmed and abused multiple times has to pay to engage a solicitor/barrister to make that happen and the bloody offender has so many rights in that court and in our case the judge was cut from the same misogynistic cloth as FIL. The whole experience was unbelievably eye opening and beyond shocking. The court did not grant the order and the police who knew how bad it was told us they would respond as if there was an order in place to the best of their ability given how high risk the situation was.

My Father was incredibly selfish, not an abuser. Then he lost his job and turned to drink. We had 18 months of that drinking before my Mother got an interdict, school reports, GP reports. He died not too long after as we’re talking full on alchy not some functioning one. I struggled to forgive my Mum for it taking so long, my brother and I suffered irreparable damage as a result. She paid over £5k in 1990 for this and had a good job to take over the house yet we were messed up as a result of her being a catholic putting marriage before the children (as apparently it say so in the bible). Oddly enough what made her get an interdict was her best friend from school said she never forgave her Mother for not leaving her Father when he drank (and he wasn’t in the same league as my father’s drinking).

When I got pregnant to someone clearly narcissistic My Mother then became a rock to me as was basically like “Get him out your life, don’t put him on the birth certificate and if you go back to him I’m writing you out my will”. I’ve had money, a house paid off and a career so I’ve been lucky but I know he’s went on to abuse other women and have several more kids. I will never forget the support my Mother offered me whilst I was being abused, she made up for not being quick enough to act earlier on and was there 24/7 for me when I had my child. Getting out of these relationships is imperative for the happiness, success and well being of children. Dithering about it, your children may struggle to forgive you. Yes it’s hard, these people manipulate and compare you to horrendously selfish women whilst taking no accountability for their own actions.

What I genuinely can’t understand is one of these relationships with a controlling abuser should be enough to be wary or at least have a few years break from dating but I genuinely don’t understand how some women and not wary and just pick up with someone else and repeat the pattern. I’ve stayed single for 18 years, dated and definitely met a few potential abusers, but my heart is not in it and it shows, there’s no vulnerability left.

I do think we need to be harder on Mothers in these situations and publicly so, not to shame them but bring more clarity to the situation they’re lightly being manipulated into staying. Children first and your relationship second, a public health warning. One of the reasons men get off with this is blurring the lines so make it clear in public health adverts. Get your kids out that situation.

Totally agree that who decides to stay in an abusive relationship when kids are involved is complicit in the abuse. Even animals and birds protect their young, so what excuse does a human have for not doing so?
A relative of mine chose to stay in a toxic abusive relationship for over 10 years.. Poor kids (3 of them, all born during the abusive relationship) suffered terribly.. The 2 eldest can't speak properly, stammer, wet the beds and are generally terrified of their own shadows. Relative finally left after basically being TOLD by Social Service that she risks losing her kids (rightly so) UNLESS she leaves.
Left him and what did she do next? Yeah, you guessed it.... Got with a new guy and moved him in with her and the kids within 3 weeks. Same story unfolded again, he was another abusive one with history of similar. Obviously relative didn't think to do background checks on him (Claire's law for example), just moved him straight in. A friend ran Claire's law check on him (out of concern) and guess what? Yeah.... Long history of abusing women. Relative was that desperate to be in a relationship, for her it was "better" than being single and just focusing on raising her kids... Frustratingly, kids are STILL in her care.

Don’t you think that maybe we could be harder on the actual abusers, who cause all the issues in the first place?

The most dangerous time for a woman is when she leaves her abusive partner.

There are many reasons why women don't just leave abusive relationships, lack of money, lack of support, fear of retaliation, fear of having to share custody of the chldren with their abusive/violent partner.

You sound as though you think that it's an easy thing to do and women don't do it because they don't really care about their kids.

I see where you are coming from but these are usually men with personality disorders. In short they’re nuts unfortunately women do have to start stepping up to this one and I completely get the utter terror they must feel. A psychopath or Addict is not worth having any discussion with, they don’t care.

Well I regretted leaving for years. Before I left he did no childcare and all abuse was directed at me. After I left he got unsupervised contact and aimed his abuse at the children. This was what the family court decided. My son has told social worker daddy hits him and locks him in his room etc but because I lost in court it’s not seen as abuse.

if we had a legal system that actually protects women and children then no would agree with the sentiment the women who don’t leave deserve judgment. But the system we have will fuck them over for leaving

I hope you are OK

These are (unfortunately) usually quite normal men actually. From all walks of life. More often than not they're known as pillars of their communities. Its rare that any of the abusers I've worked with have had a diagnosis of personality disorder or any other kind of diagnosis although when they do it can raise the risk of homicide specifically. Most have been normally functioning people with 'good' jobs like teachers, pastors, social workers etc. Never, ever have I seen one with a diagnosis of psychopathy even in the most violent cases. These men are highly self controlled.

The concept that men who abuse do so because they are "nuts" is a myth and quite a harmful one because it also suggests that they weren't in their right mind or in full control of themselves and are therefore in some way less culpable. Right along with the myths that men abuse because of alcohol or substances or other addiction. Or because they get angry. All absolute nonsense. They abuse because they feel entitled to - its an outworking of the systemic inequality of women and social misogyny. And that is why it is so, so important that we don't punish women or blame women, but instead push for a system that actually punishes men who abuse and does preventative work to stop young men growing up to think it's ok to abuse. At present just over 1% actually serve a sentence for domestic abuse, if SS are involved mum (who has been parenting in a high stress situation) is the one scrutinised. It is WOEFUL.

Yep. Dumped ex when dc were relatively young - 8 and 5. In hindsight it should have been far sooner!