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To be sick of all the newspaper articles saying lies about DLA and PIP

1000 replies

elliejjtiny · 08/04/2025 22:37

To get any DLA or PIP you have to be significantly disabled. To get the higher rate of either part you have to be severely disabled.

A motability car is not free, it's rented. To get one you need to either be unable to walk 50 metres or have a severe learning disability, which is very difficult to get.

It's always happened but since the stuff in the news about changes to PIP it's got worse.

Articles in the newspapers claiming you can get a free car for bed wetting, which just doesn't happen. There will be children like my ds who get DLA because they have a number of problems including bedwetting but nobody gets high rate mobility for bed wetting on its own.

There are other articles about people claiming PIP and DLA for various minor sounding conditions and I am so fed up with it. I know from experience that the newspapers will have talked to people claiming PIP/DLA and twist everything they say to make them sound like a scrounger.

All these articles are giving off the message that anyone with any minor disability can claim loads of benefits.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
GivenUpOnSleep · 12/04/2025 11:08

GivenUpOnSleep · 11/04/2025 09:26

Why is it you are convinced there are “cheap and affordable” ways to means test it and yet the Government, OBR and independent economists disagree with you? What is it that convinces you that you know better?

For example, a member of DWP staff on this thread told you that the DWP estimates means testing PIP would require 7000 to 8000 additional staff, the cost of whom would far outweigh the savings that they estimate of £2 million per year because so few people who are severely disabled are higher earners and those who are generally don’t claim the PIP they are entitled to anyway because it is such a humiliating and invasive process. This £2 million saving as a result of means testing would fund only 50 of those staff’s salaries, less in fact as that doesn’t cover employer NI, pension contributions etc. Then all of these extra DWP staff will need offices to work in, computer equipment, heating, insurance, HR functions, IT support functions etc.

That’s the ongoing cost every year, before you factor in the cost of putting an IT system in place. Just to give you an idea, HMRC estimates that the recent change to child benefit eligibility thresholds is going to cost them £2.7 billion to implement. That is just for changing the threshold of an existing system, with the IT infrastructure already in place (and doesn’t include the ongoing costs of them doing the extra work annually i.e. processing all of the additional tax returns, processing forms to stop child benefit payments/ restart them, eligibility, investigations, complaints, corrections of errors… etc which is roughly £1.5bn per year). And for child benefit this is relatively simple because it is administered via the existing HMRC IT system. Means testing PIP would be much more expensive because PIP is administered via DWP IT systems which are totally separate and not linked up to HMRC IT systems. Integrating these two would be almost impossible and require effectively replacing both in their entirety with one unified system because the only means-testing system that the DWP has at the moment is the functionality to receive monthly earnings reports from HMRC (that’s the extent of integration they could achieve), the rest has to be done manually, e.g. checking of bank statements for assets etc. Replacing the DWP and HMRC systems would cost tens of billions of pounds even if the Government had competent software engineers (newsflash - they do not). To give you some idea of scale, Reeve’s tax rises in the autumn statement came to a total of only £4 billion. So how do you propose this is funded?

This is just to give you any idea of internal costs to the Government of implementing your bright idea. It is extremely obvious that the costs would far, far outweigh the savings even looking only at the internal costs of simply setting up and administering the system.

Then you have to consider the economic effects of such a system. As has been explained to you, means testing PIP would create another cliff edge in the tax system which creates a disincentive to work, therefore lower employment participation. It would make it impossible for many of the people who do claim PIP and work to continue to do so, forcing them onto universal credit so rather than saving the PIP money they currently receive, they would then receive PIP and have to claim universal credit for their living costs (which they currently cover themselves by working) and lower overall tax revenue because they’d no longer be paying tax.

This is why Governments are now realising that means testing is counterproductive and that such cliff edges need removing from all levels of the tax and benefits system, and why the Government proposed the recent reforms to universal credit which were designed to try to remove just such a cliff-edge. There are plenty of economic studies on this. For example, Jeremy Hunt commissioned independent economic research on why UK productivity levels are so low (the main cause of falling living standards) and it noted that there are significant disincentives to work built into the tax system at various levels for example, the universal credit taper rate being so high it is barely worth people working more hours, the child benefit withdrawal having the same effect at that threshold meaning marginal tax rates can be as high as 80%, the withdrawal of the personal allowance and childcare funding at £100k which raises marginal tax rates for people with children to over 100% i.e. if they earn more their net income goes down. Obviously nobody will work more when the incremental increase in earnings is so low, or even negative. So you end up with people cutting their hours, or retiring early and dropping out of the workforce entirely, or emigrating. HMRC data shows bunching of earnings just below each of these thresholds so the effect is demonstrable from the data, that people obviously change their behaviour as a result of the perverse disincentives, so it lowers productivity and overall tax revenue meaning less money is available to fund services, growth is lower and everyone is poorer as a result.

Why are you convinced that all of the ONS data, OBR data, HMRC data, DWP data, and all of these independent economists are wrong and you are right?

Can you please share with us all your “cheap and affordable” way of means testing that would solve all of these above issues, costs and negative effects and actually result in lower costs to the taxpayer?

Mr Bean Waiting GIF by MOODMAN

Mysteriously, it appears that @Bumpitybumper has still not shared with us her genius plan for “cheap and affordable” means testing that wouldn’t a) cost more the operate than it saves, and b) cause economic harm by lowering tax revenue, increasing welfare costs and lowering employment participation.

GivenUpOnSleep · 12/04/2025 11:10

Wildflowers99 · 12/04/2025 10:57

There’s 2 aspects to work.

  1. Paying taxes, which I do - albeit I assume I’m not a net contributor as I earn 30k.
  2. Providing a service. The job I do is useful/essential to the public. Most nurses are not net contributors especially if they have a couple of kids - should they have any opinion on how their taxes are spent, or not because they’re not net contributors? Is their role more essential to you than some CEO on 100k?

I certainly wouldn’t want you involved in the care of my children in any way.

Wildflowers99 · 12/04/2025 11:12

ruethewhirl · 12/04/2025 11:00

Oh please stop, I’m running out of ribs. Borderline Communism my arse. 😂😂

I’ve no wish to be ageist but life experience has taught me that what people view as hard left is often closely tied to their age. Not always, but often. I’m not going to be intrusive and ask your age, but I am wondering whether you were around in the 80s to see some of the antics of the Labour left then, because I can’t help feeling your view on what constitutes hard left is bound to be different depending on your age and perspective.

As for the expectations you talk about. We live in a society that’s set up around the principle of paying in so that if you come to be in need you can take out. That is a person’s absolute right in British society. Obviously I realise that the model is not working at present, due in part to the number of people who haven’t paid in yet and are in need, and those few (because yes, it is relatively few) who are managing to game the system are compounding the problem. But there is an issue here of what sort of society do we want to be. Do we really want to be like America, for example, and have even more of the genuinely vulnerable begging on the streets than we already do now?

You’ve shared that you think you’re probably eligible for benefits but choose to work. That’s great for those of us with conditions who can manage it. At present, touch wood, I am managing it too. But if in the future my mobility and pain issues mean I can no longer work full time/work at all, you’d better damn well believe I will be claiming whatever I am legally and morally entitled to. I get doing one’s bit for society if at all possible (which, ironically, is an ethic Communism had a lot of time for), but I don’t think there’s any particular honour in martyring oneself for the sake of ideology.

I’m mid 30s.

I think the type of society you, or I, want to be is somewhat irrelevant - we’re bound by financial constraints. Nobody seems to want to acknowledge this, they just attack the messenger because ‘why is everything about money?’ (even though that’s what they’re asking for). They seem to think we can exist as a country with extremely high unemployment due to disability or MH, propped up by a few highly taxed billionaires.

I feel like the UK has become a gigantic life support system for people with various needs and as such the services which gave us a quality of life (youth clubs, libraries, sports facilities, nicely maintained public spaces) are all being stripped away to pay for it, leaving the taxpayer depressed.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 12/04/2025 11:13

TigerRag · 12/04/2025 11:08

How do they check your internet history?

Your ISP tracks and saves it, the government can access it for various purposes under public interest. This was all legalised to fight terrorists but has been expanded to include fighting benefit fraud.

Bumpitybumper · 12/04/2025 11:14

GivenUpOnSleep · 12/04/2025 11:08

Mysteriously, it appears that @Bumpitybumper has still not shared with us her genius plan for “cheap and affordable” means testing that wouldn’t a) cost more the operate than it saves, and b) cause economic harm by lowering tax revenue, increasing welfare costs and lowering employment participation.

You could use the same mechanism as Child Benefit. Effectively a high income charge. Contrary to your claims this hasn't cost the government billions to means test.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 12/04/2025 11:15

Wildflowers99 · 12/04/2025 11:12

I’m mid 30s.

I think the type of society you, or I, want to be is somewhat irrelevant - we’re bound by financial constraints. Nobody seems to want to acknowledge this, they just attack the messenger because ‘why is everything about money?’ (even though that’s what they’re asking for). They seem to think we can exist as a country with extremely high unemployment due to disability or MH, propped up by a few highly taxed billionaires.

I feel like the UK has become a gigantic life support system for people with various needs and as such the services which gave us a quality of life (youth clubs, libraries, sports facilities, nicely maintained public spaces) are all being stripped away to pay for it, leaving the taxpayer depressed.

? Unemployment is at a long term historic low. It’s not moderately high, high or extremely high. It will go up though, and not due to disability but due to businesses shedding jobs and collapsing.

elliejjtiny · 12/04/2025 11:17

I don't know what will happen when he gets to PIP age but my 14 year old gets DLA for suspected ADHD. I sent in the referral forms from school as well as his school reports as evidence.

I think a lot of people don't realise the significance of some disabilities until they have experienced them themselves. My FIL didn't get that my ds2 needs to be supervised at all times until he ended up in an ambulance when FIL was meant to be looking after him. One of my other dc was born with a cleft lip and the amount of times I had to explain that no, the midwife couldn't put in a few stitches in the delivery room was unbelievable. Also that he wouldn't be the same as everyone else after 1 operation.

OP posts:
ruethewhirl · 12/04/2025 11:18

Wildflowers99 · 12/04/2025 11:12

I’m mid 30s.

I think the type of society you, or I, want to be is somewhat irrelevant - we’re bound by financial constraints. Nobody seems to want to acknowledge this, they just attack the messenger because ‘why is everything about money?’ (even though that’s what they’re asking for). They seem to think we can exist as a country with extremely high unemployment due to disability or MH, propped up by a few highly taxed billionaires.

I feel like the UK has become a gigantic life support system for people with various needs and as such the services which gave us a quality of life (youth clubs, libraries, sports facilities, nicely maintained public spaces) are all being stripped away to pay for it, leaving the taxpayer depressed.

I hear you but I absolutely disagree that considering what kind of society we want is irrelevant - we might as well give up and become like the USA if we start thinking like that. That remark is very telling of how deeply Thatcherite 'no such thing as society' ideology has permeated into our society, both at the time and since. It's also a bit contradictory, because surely the services you describe (and I agree the cuts to those aren't in the least desirable) are right at the centre of trying to build the kind of society we want?

GivenUpOnSleep · 12/04/2025 11:18

Wildflowers99 · 12/04/2025 10:58

It does make sense. Nobody can deny these children are very disabled, although whether they have the same condition as Bella Ramsey seems unlikely. Their parents urgently need that support. Bella’s don’t.

I see. So how are you going to distinguish these children that you say “nobody will deny are disabled” from the ones that you are claiming are misdiagnosed? Your entire premise was that you deny a medical condition exists if there isn’t a clear biological test for it and it is diagnosed by symptoms (despite posters pointing out to you that this applies to a very large number of medical conditions).

So do tell us Dr Wildflowers, in the absence of a biological test, and obviously without recourse to symptoms/ presentation (which is how autism is currently diagnosed and precisely what you have objected to) how will you identify the ones that - in your view - are “genuinely austistic”?

GivenUpOnSleep · 12/04/2025 11:24

Bumpitybumper · 12/04/2025 11:14

You could use the same mechanism as Child Benefit. Effectively a high income charge. Contrary to your claims this hasn't cost the government billions to means test.

I provided specific figures from publicly available data yesterday about the cost of means testing child benefit which prove that it has cost more the it saves.

I also explained to you why it would be even more expensive to do this for PIP because it isn’t administered through the HMRC system, but by the DWP, so a completely new IT system would have to be implemented that would costs tens of billions of pounds.

It’s just the same thing you’ve done throughout the thread. You are provided with detailed explanations, actual numbers, and asked for the evidence for your assertions which have been demonstrated to be false and you either ignore it completely or keep posting the same nonsense as before and pretend that these silly comments haven’t been proved to be factually wrong already.

GivenUpOnSleep · 12/04/2025 11:27

GivenUpOnSleep · 11/04/2025 09:46

Oh, and as for means testing child benefit saving money, roughly 10% of UK working adults earn over £60k. Mostly people earn more towards the end of their careers when their children are grown up so the percentage of parents with children who earn this figure will be lower but let’s go with 10%. Total child benefit cost to the Treasury is currently around £12.5bn per year. 10% of this is £1.25bn (although there is tapering, so lets say £1.5bn potential saving at best, given that very high earners would never have bothered to claim it, anyway). Given that it costs £1.5bn per year as an ongoing cost to process the means-testing, it saves precisely zero. It has just transferred money from children to additional HMRC staff who had to be employed.

And this was a relatively simple means test to implement, into an existing system that already had an IT system designed to collect all of the relevant data. Of course, this doesn’t even factor in the setup costs, or costs of changing thresholds etc outlined in my previous post. And, crucially, doesn’t include the economic cost to the wider economy, lowered productivity, lower workforce participation, and lower tax revenue that results from the disincentive (which HMRC shows has a very significant effect with a large number of people keeping earnings just below the threshold due to the punitive marginal tax rates above it). It is therefore very clear that this means testing makes everyone poorer, not just the families who have had child benefit removed, but the rest of the population also because the resulting falling tax revenue means either higher tax rates or less funding for other public services.

Means testing has been shown repeatedly to be counterproductive by historic data time and time again, with similar results every time such a system is implemented. Usually it is motivated by political optics, like so many poor decisions in UK economic management, by short-termist politicians pandering to the prejudices of an economically illiterate electorate.

Here you go @Bumpitybumper, the child benefit figures for you again.

MonaLisaDoesntSmile · 12/04/2025 11:28

Wildflowers99 · 12/04/2025 11:12

I’m mid 30s.

I think the type of society you, or I, want to be is somewhat irrelevant - we’re bound by financial constraints. Nobody seems to want to acknowledge this, they just attack the messenger because ‘why is everything about money?’ (even though that’s what they’re asking for). They seem to think we can exist as a country with extremely high unemployment due to disability or MH, propped up by a few highly taxed billionaires.

I feel like the UK has become a gigantic life support system for people with various needs and as such the services which gave us a quality of life (youth clubs, libraries, sports facilities, nicely maintained public spaces) are all being stripped away to pay for it, leaving the taxpayer depressed.

You fell victim to propaganda of consecutive governments making you believe that disabled people somehow responsible for most of the haemorrage of money out of the system and are repsonsible for closing libraries etc.
UK is not a gigantic life support.
Look at corporate tax avoidance and ask yourself, which one would bring more money to the country- a few people with mental health not getting the support they need to survive or a bunch of millionaires paying their taxes.

Wildflowers99 · 12/04/2025 11:30

GivenUpOnSleep · 12/04/2025 11:18

I see. So how are you going to distinguish these children that you say “nobody will deny are disabled” from the ones that you are claiming are misdiagnosed? Your entire premise was that you deny a medical condition exists if there isn’t a clear biological test for it and it is diagnosed by symptoms (despite posters pointing out to you that this applies to a very large number of medical conditions).

So do tell us Dr Wildflowers, in the absence of a biological test, and obviously without recourse to symptoms/ presentation (which is how autism is currently diagnosed and precisely what you have objected to) how will you identify the ones that - in your view - are “genuinely austistic”?

I didn’t say any of that.

Every other medical condition is diagnosed based on either similar symptoms, OR a concrete biological test

For example, the same cancer can produce different symptoms in its sufferers. But we know they have the same thing as the biopsy will show that.

Migraines can’t be diagnosed via a biological test but we diagnose it because the sufferers all have the same symptoms - head/neck pain, vomiting, visual disturbances.

Autism, like some other MH conditions, requires neither the same symptoms nor does it have a definitive test. So I’ll ask again, how do we know a non verbal 6 year old in nappies has exactly the same thing as someone like Bella Ramsey?

Wildflowers99 · 12/04/2025 11:31

MonaLisaDoesntSmile · 12/04/2025 11:28

You fell victim to propaganda of consecutive governments making you believe that disabled people somehow responsible for most of the haemorrage of money out of the system and are repsonsible for closing libraries etc.
UK is not a gigantic life support.
Look at corporate tax avoidance and ask yourself, which one would bring more money to the country- a few people with mental health not getting the support they need to survive or a bunch of millionaires paying their taxes.

The social care bill is bankrupt councils. How will that not have a knock on effect to other services?

Wildflowers99 · 12/04/2025 11:31

MonaLisaDoesntSmile · 12/04/2025 11:28

You fell victim to propaganda of consecutive governments making you believe that disabled people somehow responsible for most of the haemorrage of money out of the system and are repsonsible for closing libraries etc.
UK is not a gigantic life support.
Look at corporate tax avoidance and ask yourself, which one would bring more money to the country- a few people with mental health not getting the support they need to survive or a bunch of millionaires paying their taxes.

Also which millionaires don’t pay their taxes? The top 1% of earners pay 30% of all tax. Is that not enough in your view?

GivenUpOnSleep · 12/04/2025 11:40

Wildflowers99 · 12/04/2025 11:30

I didn’t say any of that.

Every other medical condition is diagnosed based on either similar symptoms, OR a concrete biological test

For example, the same cancer can produce different symptoms in its sufferers. But we know they have the same thing as the biopsy will show that.

Migraines can’t be diagnosed via a biological test but we diagnose it because the sufferers all have the same symptoms - head/neck pain, vomiting, visual disturbances.

Autism, like some other MH conditions, requires neither the same symptoms nor does it have a definitive test. So I’ll ask again, how do we know a non verbal 6 year old in nappies has exactly the same thing as someone like Bella Ramsey?

Autism is diagnosed basic on a very specific set of symptoms. There are standardised tests with specific thresholds for the three different sets of symptoms.

You don’t seem to be able to grasp that the same medical condition can present differently in different people. One person with asthma might only need to use an inhalor from time to time. Another may regularly end up in hospital with life-threatening problems. They still both have asthma.

Autism is not a mental health condition.

Your ignorance is quite astounding and I really hope that you are not a nurse as some of your previous comments seem to attempt to insinuate because if you are then your lack of even basic knowledge about how medical diagnosis works will be putting many patients at risk.

If I had to hazard a guess, based on your arrogance, unwillingness to consider any information that conflicts with your entrenched prejudices, and aggressive and rude tone, I would think you are probably a social worker. Unfortunately that “profession” seems to attract precisely the opposite sort of people who should be doing the role and yet, like you, they seem convinced that they’re providing a great public service to people when they are generally dangerously incompetent. Am I close?

Morph22010 · 12/04/2025 11:43

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 12/04/2025 11:13

Your ISP tracks and saves it, the government can access it for various purposes under public interest. This was all legalised to fight terrorists but has been expanded to include fighting benefit fraud.

But how can it be used to fight benefit fraud by what you search? I book flights and things for my mum through my internet as she can’t do it. I also look at holidays I will never book and houses I will never buy purely through interest

GivenUpOnSleep · 12/04/2025 11:43

Wildflowers99 · 12/04/2025 11:31

Also which millionaires don’t pay their taxes? The top 1% of earners pay 30% of all tax. Is that not enough in your view?

That is income tax. The poster was referring to corporate tax evasion/ avoidance facilitated by legal loopholes in our overly complex and dysfunctional tax system.

I should refer you again to Economics for Dummies.

Sirzy · 12/04/2025 11:47

Wildflowers99 · 12/04/2025 11:30

I didn’t say any of that.

Every other medical condition is diagnosed based on either similar symptoms, OR a concrete biological test

For example, the same cancer can produce different symptoms in its sufferers. But we know they have the same thing as the biopsy will show that.

Migraines can’t be diagnosed via a biological test but we diagnose it because the sufferers all have the same symptoms - head/neck pain, vomiting, visual disturbances.

Autism, like some other MH conditions, requires neither the same symptoms nor does it have a definitive test. So I’ll ask again, how do we know a non verbal 6 year old in nappies has exactly the same thing as someone like Bella Ramsey?

So what your saying is you know better than trained medical professionals and the experts who compile the DSM and ICD then?

Morph22010 · 12/04/2025 11:52

GivenUpOnSleep · 12/04/2025 11:24

I provided specific figures from publicly available data yesterday about the cost of means testing child benefit which prove that it has cost more the it saves.

I also explained to you why it would be even more expensive to do this for PIP because it isn’t administered through the HMRC system, but by the DWP, so a completely new IT system would have to be implemented that would costs tens of billions of pounds.

It’s just the same thing you’ve done throughout the thread. You are provided with detailed explanations, actual numbers, and asked for the evidence for your assertions which have been demonstrated to be false and you either ignore it completely or keep posting the same nonsense as before and pretend that these silly comments haven’t been proved to be factually wrong already.

Ageee and Means tested pip has the added complication about who should be means tested. For kids with child benefit it’s the parents but would adult children on pip still be means tested based on parental /household/ spouse income or just their own individual income. It is a real can of worms that could have expensive consequences if you do means test the wider family.

StrivingForSleep · 12/04/2025 11:58

Migraines…sufferers all have the same symptoms - head/neck pain, vomiting, visual disturbances.

Except on more than one thread posters have pointed out to you this isn’t true. Not all have head/neck pain. Not all have visual disturbances. Not all vomit.

iwentjasonwaterfalls · 12/04/2025 12:02

Migraines can’t be diagnosed via a biological test but we diagnose it because the sufferers all have the same symptoms - head/neck pain, vomiting, visual disturbances.

This isn't accurate for migraines - there are different types including hemiplegic migraines, vestibular, abdominal etc. Not all migraines involve head pain, they don't all involve vomiting or visual disturbances.

Sirzy · 12/04/2025 12:07

My sister has migraines which mimic a lot of the signs of strokes. She has to take daily medication to try to prevent them and has emergency medication for the first signs of one.

I get migraines but nowhere as severe as hers and mine present in a different way. Doesn’t mean mine aren’t migraines though!

GivenUpOnSleep · 12/04/2025 12:13

Sirzy · 12/04/2025 11:47

So what your saying is you know better than trained medical professionals and the experts who compile the DSM and ICD then?

Bored Over It GIF

We’re all desperate to see Dr Wildflowers’ medical research that refutes all of that published by neurologists in medical journals over the last 50 years or so. I asked her to post a link to it yesterday but we’re still waiting.

RejoiceandSing · 12/04/2025 12:15

Wildflowers99 · 12/04/2025 11:30

I didn’t say any of that.

Every other medical condition is diagnosed based on either similar symptoms, OR a concrete biological test

For example, the same cancer can produce different symptoms in its sufferers. But we know they have the same thing as the biopsy will show that.

Migraines can’t be diagnosed via a biological test but we diagnose it because the sufferers all have the same symptoms - head/neck pain, vomiting, visual disturbances.

Autism, like some other MH conditions, requires neither the same symptoms nor does it have a definitive test. So I’ll ask again, how do we know a non verbal 6 year old in nappies has exactly the same thing as someone like Bella Ramsey?

They don't have exactly the same thing. Autism is diagnosed in three levels, depending on support needed. Look it up ffs.

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