To feel that the reasons some children don't do well at school, isn't because they don't try hard enough?

[Daydreamingforever]

Ffs had an idiot tell me this is why some kids don't do well, and that they cou,d of they tried hard enough

I replied I'm sure it's jot as simple as that, amdtnat for a start the child needs to believe in themselves ....
And that there's allsorts of reasons kids don't do well at school, but struggled to explain much more than there's all sorts of socio-economic reasons for it, but didn't elaborate further

At times, kids with SEN are the hardest working in the class. They have to apply themselves so much more than the quiet clever kids. And yet they don't achieve.

So no. Working hard is frequently not the route to success others insist it is.

Absolutely.

To me success is 90% hard work, 10% intelligence. I know someone who left school just before A-levels, didn't go to university but he's doing super super well in the USA due to hard work and grit.

This is compounded by a bigger issue in my opinion - which is that a lot of people actively disliking intelligence and balk at encouraging family to be ‘elite’ or ‘above’

How often do you hear it? Clever clogs, swot, teachers pet, suck up, airs and graces, too clever by half, thinks their better than others, smarty pants etc. etc.

So many people think clever people are out to trick them, con them, take control of the world with their ‘schemes’ or, worst of all, look down on them. Demonstrable proof, evidence and scientific basis are all dirty words/thoughts.

I'm not saying everyone should doff their caps or just defer without question. But there was a time when the less educated at least acknowledged the fact the educated knew things and that education was to be valued and strived for. Almost every study ever done equates education with better outcomes, most especially for women.

Children reflect their parents 90% of the time, if they make no effort, their parents don’t encourage them too, if they think it’s not important, their parents have in some way demonstrated that belief to them; and you can’t suggest self improvement to the parents - that would be you insulting them and looking down, rather than a perfectly useful, helpful suggestion.

Ultimately, I’m saying a lot of parents need to take a long hard look at themselves as to why their children don’t / won’t try in schools.
They don’t want to take that look.

I believe the point of the thread is that it is not always a case of not trying hard. Some people just don't have it no matter how hard they try.
I wasn't a dedicated student I barely revised and did my GCSEs six months pregnant still got good grades.

I knew someone who revised every possible moment and still failed every exam.
The sad truth is intelligence doesn't come from just working hard some people are just naturally smarter than others

For some children they absolutely could do better if they tried harder, I was one of them - had the potential to do so much better but I was lazy and didn't want to put the effort in.
My DD is one that improved in science, which she finds difficult, greatly when she started putting effort in (and more recently stopped putting in so much effort, for understandable reasons*, and nearly failed a physics exam she likely could have got an 8 or more in if she had put her usual amount of effort)

For other children they won't be able to do better no matter how hard they try because they don't have the aptitude, and some have too much stressors in their life to be able to put the effort in.

*illness and stress so I don't blame her at all and it's only one exam out of many she will have so I won't put more stress on her by making a big deal out of it

For some children they absolutely could do better if they tried harder, I was one of them - had the potential to do so much better but I was lazy and didn't want to put the effort in

Looking back, what could your parents have done about this, do you think?

I'm really not sure tbh. I think they could have checked I was doing my homework because I was not (and for some reason I wasn't getting into trouble for that at school) and perhaps helped me with revision a bit (I help DD by asking her questions) but coursework was my big let down and I understand that's not done so much any more? (I'm not in the UK any more so different education system). I could have done with being nagged more to do my coursework but that wouldn't work with all children, not everyone responds well to nagging (probably most people don't but I do)

I believe the point of the thread is that it is not always a case of not trying hard.

I actually do think this was OP’s point @Singaporeannoodle.

Unfortunately that’s not quite what she said.

It is the sentiment reflected in her title, but she then outlined arguing with ‘an idiot’ who said that some kids don’t do well because they don’t work harder?

I mean…some kids could work harder and do better. That’s not exactly a controversial thing to say. A bit more study wouldn’t go amiss in many cases, especially as they get older and face exam years.

The fact that there are a lot of other reasons children don’t do well in school doesn’t negate that.

I think OP made her point clumsily and caused confusion.

I didn’t have the support I needed, I needed a push, I am autistic but undiagnosed back then, my parents and teachers should’ve noticed why I was always “ill” and it’s because I couldn’t cope with the workload and social side

Not true.

Thanks Commander That's a really lovely encouraging post.

I'm not sure what PFA is. They do a lot of practical stuff: cooking, woodwork, sewing etc. Loads of PSA (personal and social education) tailored to their needs. Loads of school trips to fun places. Its an excellent life for a 12 year old boy really.
He does chess club and school council with the mainstream kids and he'll be starting modern studies in a mainstream class in May. My only niggle is that while the unit talk a good game about access to mainstream experiences, they're really much more comfortable with facilitating that for PE or Home Economics than....say... History. (which is one of DS's special interests)
I've come to terms with the idea that he'll follow his geeky interests as a hobby for now, and as an academic pursuit two years later than his peers, if at all.

That's really nice of you to say that DD has an exceptional brain. She certainly shows a lot of grit which will serve her well in later life.

Its been an interesting journey because they are probably quite close in academic ability. Watching how it works out for them both, I can see the pros and cons of being the smartest kid in the SEN Unit versus being the struggling kid in the mainstream class. The expectations on them are very different.

@sacredblue

Our school system is set up almost entirely for kids who are academic. That is a very narrow skill set.

Nail on the head. Ever since grammars and sec moderns were scrapped and replaced by "comps", this has been the case as comps are basically moulded around academic subjects, with barely just lip-service to "manual" skills. Kids who aren't academic are just left to fester and become disengaged and disruptive which affects everyone around them.

Then of course, we had Blair and his obsession with 50% going to Uni, which is, again, obsessing about academic students, and the dismantling of adult education and training in "the trades" and manual skills has left the other 50% floundering again.

The whole system from primary, through to secondary and beyond into FE and HE is all prioritised towards the academic with just scraps left over for the not-so-academic ones, hence the increase in NEETS, young adult unemployment, lack of trades and manual skilled workers, etc.

The rot set in during the 70s when Grammars and SecMods were merged with the emphasis on the academic side of things. After all, we were promised "a grammar education for all", which was basically an academic education for all, with no thought at all for those more suited to manual skills.

I'm in a weird position on this one. I did fantastically well at school - top grades the whole way through, picture in the paper for my final results, awards for the highest grade in my county in a particular exam - and looking back I can't for the life of me figure out why I bothered. I don't think it was a waste of time as such, but there was just no need for it, really. I could have got much lower results and I'd still be me and probably still be doing what I'm doing now.

I did well at school because my brain is suited to the way school works - I had a great memory, I was a fast reader and I could recall facts in a sequence. Put a gun to my head now and I could probably recall little or nothing of what I learned. I don't think school gave me any great skills or knowledge really - I learned some useful things at uni but I learned the most useful skills through work.

My DS is like me - focused on getting good results, hard on himself when he doesn't do as well as he hoped -and I don't know what to say to him. I should be encouraging and validate his effort but in fact I feel like saying 'just do the bare minimum, it'll be fine.' Memorising loads of history facts doesn't improve you as a person. It does give you access to some specific experiences - say, studying at a particular uni - but it you're not fussed about that then the benefit is very limited. It makes sense to get whatever grade you need to do whatever it is you want to do next. If you're going to be a building apprentice then there's no point in getting a 7 in geography, unless you're really into it.

In an ideal world I'd love for young people to do things that they enjoy and do well at because they are genuinely interested, rather than having to sit for hours and force facts into their brain so they can regurgitate them in an exam. I know that's not doable in practical terms, unfortunately. But I think a sensible approach to school - as in, this is what you have to do but it's not the be all and end all - is worth having.

DC2 didn't do as well at school as they should have done due to undiagnosed dyslexia and ADHD. The school threw me off the scent by running some screening tests and they all came back normal. DC2 couldn't have put in more effort.

Similar for me - I underperformed in subjects like English Literature due to undiagnosed autism. I am extremely bad at reading between the lines to this day.

'equates education with better outcomes'

What if the education given (as in a lot of UK state secondary schools right now) is crap?

I agree that we need to value education for our children. But I've seen schools that are like prisons, making children take sick bags to lessons, rather than phoning parents to take them home. Schools unable to recruit, due to the teacher retention crisis, resulting in supply teacher after supply teacher. Uncontrolled behaviour issues, leaving the rest of the class totally unable to concentrate on their work. Unsupported children with SEN. THOSE are some of the reasons why their children don’t / won’t try in schools.

We, as a nation and as a culture, need to value education enough and hold our politicians to account, for funding and providing GREAT education for children. Not berating children when they're not able to access it.

LOLOLOLOL
Crazy

I'm really glad my DDs school offers both academic and vocational qualifications... they can choose subjects like hospitality, construction and Animal Care alongside the traditional subjects like MFL, humanities, Computer Science etc (as well as the compulsory Maths English and Science). The Animal Care department in particular is lovely.

(And the Construction coursework looks amazing!)

This. I did try very hard in school as did DH. I'm not sure I'd do well in secondary school as most of them are today. I never had a detention. Even back then I felt I did well in spite of school not because of it.

Today I'd be a nervous wreck about getting detention for forgetting equipment or getting something wrong on my homework or not getting all 7+ in my GCSEs, or trying to get my head round the maths which is much more difficult than it was 30 years ago and I only scraped a C in back then. Or having to go to revision sessions instead of having a study break.

I'd have particularly hated school sixth forms which infantilise pupils v my sixth form college where we were treated as young adults.

How can parents can better prepare kids for secondary school? I'd suggest the following.

Subject them to verbal misogynistic abuse, a dose of cyber bullying and sexual assault, make them wear really uncomfortable clothes in stiff, horrible fabric than is also ridiculously expensive, throw them around a bit on the bus, the corridor, and on stairs, regularly leave them behind at the bus stop in the rain, serve shit but expensive food in plastic trays, give random and contradictory instructions and arbitrary punishments, give them 20 different apps with different passwords and usernames but also tell them off for using their phone, set them a shit ton of homework and get them to mark it themselves, regularly shout at them that they are going to fail at life if they don't get 10 x 9 at GCSE, take away all the subjects they would choose to do and excel at and make them study things they hate.

I'm sure I've missed something.

The main reason that some children don't do well at school is because they aren't very bright.

You need to really explain to them what retaking Maths and English will mean for them, it's horrible. Try to get a year 12 who is retaking in to talk to them about how shit it is to have to do all this extra (boring/repetitive) work while starting their College journey.

Speaking from experience.

Totally true. I could have done a lot better in school if I put in more effort, even in life, unless it’s something I really care about, I tend to do the minimum possible.

I dont mean to sound like a dick, but according to tests I have a very high IQ, I’m just a lazy fecker.

Oh please, spoken like a parent who blames everyone else for their children's shit results. I've seen this too many times and it's disgusting.

Yep absolutely crazy. Blame the schools for everything, great idea.

At my daughter's recent Year 11 parents' evening, her science teacher sternly asked my daughter why she didn't think her grades were very good. My daughter told her "I try so hard but nothing sticks". The science teacher looked genuinely shocked. I think she was expecting my daughter to say she doesn't give a damn.

Likewise, in Maths, my daughter revises for hours... past papers, videos, flashcards, revision guides but has been told she is now working at level 2 and won't be offered a place at her chosen 6th form. No matter what she does, her grades just don't seem to improve. I'm unsure why her maths teacher isn't trying harder to help her. She works as hard or harder than her peers and for little reward. It's soul destroying for her.