To feel that the reasons some children don't do well at school, isn't because they don't try hard enough?

[Daydreamingforever]

Ffs had an idiot tell me this is why some kids don't do well, and that they cou,d of they tried hard enough

I replied I'm sure it's jot as simple as that, amdtnat for a start the child needs to believe in themselves ....
And that there's allsorts of reasons kids don't do well at school, but struggled to explain much more than there's all sorts of socio-economic reasons for it, but didn't elaborate further

Well of course that is the reason for some children! It would be ridiculous to suggest that absolutely all children who don't do well in school have a reason beyond their control. Not all of the ones who go off the rails, misbehave or fail to make any effort with school work have problems at home. Many do though.

I am sensing a backstory here, because this seems a big leap. Unless I am way off the mark…

My parents were so critical that I got discouraged from trying because it was never good enough.

At school (in the 70s - 80s), even the tiniest encouragement from a teacher would really lift me - but because I was good and quiet and able enough, I'd be left to my own devices while they wrangled the more attention-demanding kids. I got through Uni and postgraduate education on raw ability and cramming for exams, but do lament what I could have done if I'd had a better work ethic instilled early.

What was missing was the understanding that learning was something good for me, that built me up as a person, instead of being something that was a hoop of obligation to jump through for someone else, for the system.

My DS doesn’t try hard enough and his grades are poor. There is a bit of ADHD at play but overall we’ve reached the conclusion that he just isn’t very ‘clever’ and doesn’t understand the work. And his response to that has been to shrug and brush it all off, despite our best efforts. It’s very difficult to know what to do.

People have different IQ- some just aren’t capable of achieving top marks.

It’s because their parents don’t try hard enough.

I had exposure to a large number of kids due to an extracurricular I was involved in, and some of them were never going to do well in school. Ever. They could only do what was classed as ‘good’ relevant to them. These were kids from good homes, parents heavily invested in education, could throw a lot of $$ at ‘the problem’, but the kids themselves were just never going to be capable beyond a certain point no matter how hard they tried.

I don't think there's a simple answer to this. I was doing well at school until I started getting bullied and picked on by one teacher. Then my grades went down. Even though I tried to study hard, I just didn't do as well. I left school and did my final year via correspondence course, and my good grades returned, and I went on to do well at University.

There are very many reasons kids don't do well, it's not all down to trying hard enough.

Well my kid isn’t trying hard enough now. It revising !! But he also has some rubbish teachers so that hasn’t helped either. The whole education system needs looking at.

This sounds like you think that school leaders deliberately create a bullying, high stress school environment to stop children from learning. Why on earth would they do this? What would they gain?

Although I don't agree with them, the controversial, draconian discipline policies imposed by some schools these days are an attempt to deal with the chaos, violence and disruption to learning caused by the appalling behaviour of many kids. They are designed to allow children to learn, and to a certain extent they seem to work.

There are many factors that affect how well children do at school.

Part of the issue is the curriculum.
Part of the issue is funding (we have no TAs at all in KS2).
Part of the issue is class sizes.
Part of the issue is more complex additional needs in the classroom that are difficult to accommodate and teach/whilst teaching a class of 30 which impacts on teaching and learning.
Part of the issue is unsupportive parents, eg, those who argue with the school over anything and everything and refuse to do the basics like read with their children at home.
Part of it is an attitude towards education that is learnt at home.
Part of it is natural variation in intelligence and ability.
Part of it is laziness - some people just lack self motivation and that applies to children too.

And it's not just any of these things in isolation. It's the interplay between them - how each factor impacts on another in the classroom.

I see all of these every day.

If the government want to improve education, they need to speak to teachers. And then they need to listen. And then they need to put their money where their mouth is in the right way.

Ultimately, (the vast majority of) teachers go into it for the right reasons and we all want the same for our children (given most of us are also parents). And that is for them to be safe, feel happy and achieve - whatever that looks like for an individual child.

At the moment many teachers and parents feel like they are fighting education and the system which leads to stress, distress and frustration for all concerned.

And yet in some cultures they have no problems ensuring their kids work with their parents to get homework done.

There are many reasons why children won’t do well.

Sometimes it’s pure lack of ability, despite a lot of effort being put in. They learn some skills and some things , but some kids won’t ever be able to even live independently.

Sometimes it’s circumstances, abuse, trauma, loss , toxic or chaotic households etc. It’s hard to focus on learning when you’re fighting just to survive . Or they miss crucial chunks of their childhoods/learning and it’s extremely hard to come back from that.

Sometimes it’s a lack of aspiration and love of learning, because that’s what they learn/see at home. The bar is set low for them and they have no one to tell them it could be much higher and they could do so much more.

Often , it can be a mix of all of the above.

Sometimes it can just simply be laziness /coasting , but in my opinion that’s a lot rarer completely on it’s own , with no external factors.

I am a primary teacher. I was totally invested in my children's education. My ds was bright but couldn't give two hoots. He definitely didn't try hard enough. Everything was in place to make it easy for him to get on but he preferred to have fun, mess around and often asked me why did it matter. I have seen lots of kids, particularly boys like this. He even asked me why do you care: anything to get out of studying and putting in effort.
Eventually as it got nearer the very final exams he kicked in so managed to save the day. But if he had tried harder he could have excelled.
When he went to university he began to put in a bit more effort which had nothing to do with me as he was away from home and a lot of the topics were beyond me.
Lots of kids put in little effort in spite of very motivated parents. My ds was in a very academic school with great teachers but l saw a lot of his friends be the same. You couldn't say they failed in education as they got there eventually but with little effort. But they were happy!!
Lots of children, on the other hand, with some learning difficulties put in massive effort and it's so hard to see them struggle so much. I find this especially true of children with dyslexia. They are so determined but it is an uphill battle for them which is soul destroying.

I know its not a popular opinion but there are some shite teachers out there I didn't get a maths gcse in school my teacher wouldn't bother marking my work I was in a class which was continuous assessment based we needed to be assessed to progress and I was not it came to a head one day when classmate asked me a question "don't ask her she is a bit thick" I proceed to answer correctly and reason my answer correctly

I didn’t do “well” in school as I was raised by an abusive family with too much outside noise impacting on my education, no one was interested in helping us, last day of school my form teacher asked me if I was being sexually abused 😥

Ds 15 is going to be sitting his GCSE exams in less than 3 weeks, for 2 years and more so in the past 5 months we’ve been battling with the school for him to be tested for dyslexia, apparently he’s at the top of their waiting list… when I asked the SENCO lead if ds was any further along she said she knew nothing about my son.

When I challenged his head of year about this it turned out she “forgot” to send the email….

His English teacher after mocks, asked him to resit the mock on a laptop he scored a 9…. His mock result came back a 6

Again, he sits his exams in less than 3 weeks, it’s absolutely absurd!

@PrancerandDancer just cutting to the end to say we used two writing workbooks recommended on here called Write from the Start, all about motor control rather than plain lines of repeated writing, in case you haven’t come across them yet!

Of course it’s because “some” kids don’t try hard enough.

People have different personalities. Some are happy to coast.

There will do course be other reasons why many don’t reach their full potential (send and home life for example) and these should be addressed.

We the 2 don’t conflate and counter each other out.

While this is true, we get students in lower sets who manage to achieve 4 and 5 because they work hard and put in the effort. Those that just can't be bothered or don't even try to answer any questions on the exam papers are lazy not necessarily lower intelligence.

Your OP says some kids could do better if they tried harder. That’s almost certainly true. There might be cultural, emotional or socioeconomic reasons why they don’t try harder, but that doesn’t take away their agency that they are choosing to not try.

Other kids are trying their hardest and not succeeding though. So I think both statements are true, but you shouldn’t dismiss “just trying harder” as a route that could work for some kids.

My 11 year old had struggled all through primary school. With lack of teacher input. Things agreed then later removed from her. School refused to make any referrals despite a family history of ASD, ADHD, dyspraxia and Dyslexia.

i removed her from the system. Self referred her myself. We have an autism and dyspraxia diagnosis now. She’s home educated but she’s a completely different child. She’s progressing much more now than previously.

My 8 year old is also autistic with a learning disability. He is at a reception level if that. He’s also home educated because the LA can’t find a suitable special school for him and he found himself without a school placement for year 3. Since he’s been out he’s learnt to read, learning to write all things he left unable to do.

That being said our 17 year old was predicted much higher grades then what she got. Reality somewhat is that she believes “she’s learnt it all” so doesn’t have to concentrate or redo what she’s already “learnt”. No amount of telling her makes her see differently

I think the concept of a school, in anything like its modern form, is an environment that is naturally inclined towards stress, bullying and sexual assault. This is simply a natural consequence of putting large numbers of children in one place with relatively little adults supervision. Kids generally flourish best in smaller groups with lots of adult oversight, but schooling doesn't allow this.

The best schools perhaps manage to mitigate this - though this is probably largely due to the intake. Even then a lot probably goes under the teachers' radar. But in a sense any problems are still not so much the fault of individual staff as the fault of the entire system. I don't pretend to know a better system but let's not pretend we've got this aspect of society sorted.

The people I know who've been most successful in life aren't the cleverest or hardest workers but those whose parents from the very start made them feel that they deserved to succeed and supported them to do so (gave them self-confidence - eg getting their teeth straightened! - and self-worth, allowed them to focus on school and didn't make them get jobs as well, gave them a calm and stable home with no big house moves/multiple school changes, supported them when they failed/through resits, supported them to get professional qualifications through all the exam failures and didn't push them into unskilled work).

I have two that are never going to do well. As a PP put it, we are aiming for "well for them" or "well under the circumstances"

DS has autism and attention difficulties. He sent primary school dissociated because the school environment was so confusing and overwhelming. Then we home educated for a while. During that time he attended a tutoring club in a classroom like environment for 1 and a half hours per week. Even this was too much for him. He's now in a SEN unit and much happier but they really aren't set up to support him with academics.
I think he will most likely get NAT 4's at age 16 and NAT 5's (equivalent to GCSEs) at age 18. So around 2 years behind his mainstream peers.

DD has severe dyslexia and, my God, she works hard. She's at Gaelic school so we're currently doing dyslexia interventions in two languages. Which is a lot of work by anyone's standards. I don't know what her likely outcome is. I think if she keeps working on her keyboard skills she may do well in exams, with reasonable adjustments.

Some kids yes, all kids no.