Page 9 | New view on mental health

Finallylostit · 2025-04-06T16:40:57+00:00

Read this today. This Doctor is refreshingly honest and a thought provoking perspective on the explosion in the mental health industry www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14576559/REAL-cause-explosion-autism-depression-psychiatrist-DR-ALISTAIR-SANTHOUSE.html

MuffinsOrCake · 07/04/2025 12:26

Not into politics. Standing with this minister and what he is about to do. He has all my backing.

CautiousLurker01 · 07/04/2025 12:27

Just to clarify - I have not been offended or angered in any way by any of the posts on this thread. I have been disagreeing, occasionally highlighting quoted words in bold or capitals to make clear what I am disagreeing with, which is my right on a public forum and a normal use of emphatic fonts.

Autism is a clear cut diagnosis based upon specific diagnostic psychological criteria, observed or measured by clinically trained professionals. It is not a range - you are either diagnosed as being autistic or you are not - but there are a range of impacts upon the lives of those diagnosed that mean no two autistic individuals will present the same, have the same challenges or the same support needs.

That is all.

Wildflowers99 · 07/04/2025 12:28

CautiousLurker01 · 07/04/2025 12:17

Erm… there’s a great big section at the end of every piece of research labelled ‘Conclusion’… these, as a body of research when results are replicated, inform practice and approaches to diagnosis, assessment, treatment and support strategies.

So, yeah, research is really significant and there is tonnes and tonnes of it (some of it linked further up the thread, including the summary article in the New Scientist on p1/2).

Show quote history

1 study which proves a common underlie which everyone with ASD haves would be acceptable to me?

P0ndl1f3 · 07/04/2025 12:30

MuffinsOrCake · 07/04/2025 12:26

Not into politics. Standing with this minister and what he is about to do. He has all my backing.

What are you talking about? What minister and what is he about to do? This thread is about a crappy book that has loads of inconsistencies which I listed below.

lifeturnsonadime · 07/04/2025 12:32

MuffinsOrCake · 07/04/2025 11:40

Like for example one of our teens suddenly developped what looks like PDA. And everyone shouting on a forum: yeaahhhh, it is PDA. They were masking all this time. ( observe, people give me a diagnosis on a forum - I am there only for info not to get a diagnosis. )

Some more rounded people suggest that no, they are just a teenager. So it turned our my child had just a phase of being a bit obstinate and as I come from a traditional culture, I have a bit of authoritative demeanour, so the way I speak comes across sometimes bossy.

So there it is. Breath now, England. You can be as different as you want, no need of labels.

Show quote history

Barely anyone actually meets the criteria for the PDA diagnosis as the demand avoidance has to be pathological not anxiety driven. Many people on the autistic spectrum who struggle with demand depending on their anxiety level. They may look like they have PDA at points but they are 'just' autistic.

I really don't think you have a clue what you are talking about. No one is handing out either autism or PDA diagnosis to people who don't meet diagnostic criteria.

Whoever mentioned Tik tok might be confused there are numbers of people (predominantly younger people) who appear to identify as neurodiverse who have never been properly diagnosed. Those people are unlikely to qualify for PIP unless they can demonstrate need.

Duckyfondant · 07/04/2025 12:32

I don't think the autism diagnosis is fit for any purpose and agree that there is no hard science. There is too much overlap between ND and NT, which suggests to me that they are not sufficient labels. Both health services and public discourse seem to be moving this way, thankfully, and targeting needs instead.

P0ndl1f3 · 07/04/2025 12:34

Wildflowers99 · 07/04/2025 12:28

1 study which proves a common underlie which everyone with ASD haves would be acceptable to me?

Show quote history

Everyone with ASC has to have specific traits that have significant impact on life. Did you not know this?

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 12:36

MuffinsOrCake · 07/04/2025 12:25

in here. Read all my posts - written in the clearest of English. There is not a statement I am stating autism does not exist in the UK. However people who want their kids labelled as such and some lousy hot air heads without correct training and lazy to dedicate proper time and attention to you and are in the their desk job for the pay package, - yes, this does exist

No. It does not. You’ve not given a single example of a professional qualified to diagnose doing anything other than that. The biggest issue young people face is not being able to access assessments and appropriate support once diagnosed.

CautiousLurker01 · 07/04/2025 12:38

Wildflowers99 · 07/04/2025 12:28

1 study which proves a common underlie which everyone with ASD haves would be acceptable to me?

Show quote history

There is no one common underlying feature which defines ‘ASD’ just as there isn’t one underlying feature of ‘cancer’ as these vary too… its a spectrum disorder!

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 12:38

lifeturnsonadime · 07/04/2025 12:32

Barely anyone actually meets the criteria for the PDA diagnosis as the demand avoidance has to be pathological not anxiety driven. Many people on the autistic spectrum who struggle with demand depending on their anxiety level. They may look like they have PDA at points but they are 'just' autistic.

I really don't think you have a clue what you are talking about. No one is handing out either autism or PDA diagnosis to people who don't meet diagnostic criteria.

Whoever mentioned Tik tok might be confused there are numbers of people (predominantly younger people) who appear to identify as neurodiverse who have never been properly diagnosed. Those people are unlikely to qualify for PIP unless they can demonstrate need.

Show quote history

There is no diagnostic criteria for PDA.

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 12:38

CautiousLurker01 · 07/04/2025 12:38

There is no one common underlying feature which defines ‘ASD’ just as there isn’t one underlying feature of ‘cancer’ as these vary too… its a spectrum disorder!

Edited

Show quote history

Yes there is - every one with ASD will have a difficulty communicating.

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 12:39

Wildflowers99 · 07/04/2025 12:28

1 study which proves a common underlie which everyone with ASD haves would be acceptable to me?

Show quote history

There is - by definition. Difficulties with social and communication skills.

P0ndl1f3 · 07/04/2025 12:40

Duckyfondant · 07/04/2025 12:32

I don't think the autism diagnosis is fit for any purpose and agree that there is no hard science. There is too much overlap between ND and NT, which suggests to me that they are not sufficient labels. Both health services and public discourse seem to be moving this way, thankfully, and targeting needs instead.

No there isn’t overlap. ND is ND,NT is NT.

Health services have always targeted need,or not as the case maybe. You can’t get pip or an EHCP without proof of need hence the vast majority of ND kids and adults not having either.

Waiting until crisis hits is a really stupid way of handling things and why the system is overwhelmed now. I have no doubt if my dc had received the care they should have had before crisis hit they wouldn’t be as ill as they are and costing so much now. Several professionals agree with me too.

WhereIsMyJumper · 07/04/2025 12:41

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 12:38

Yes there is - every one with ASD will have a difficulty communicating.

Show quote history

Yes, everyone who has ASD will struggle to communicate.

So will children who have never been taught to communicate that don’t have ASD

So will children who are observed as having ‘speech delay’ in nursery when they talk their parents’ ears off at home - turns out they were just shy.

So will children whose first language isn’t English and are in an English speaking session

CautiousLurker01 · 07/04/2025 12:44

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 12:38

Yes there is - every one with ASD will have a difficulty communicating.

Show quote history

Sorry, I have to disagree because I know that’s not true. My DS and DD have no issues with communication, they both do however have issues with theory of mind (ie the ability to read motive and intention from the conduct of those around him or to read facial expression or accurately interpret tone of voice when dealing with strangers).

Communication issues are one of the diagnostic criteria that may support an ASD diagnosis, so yes many people with an ASD diagnosis may have communication issues because this is how their ASD operates.

P0ndl1f3 · 07/04/2025 12:44

WhereIsMyJumper · 07/04/2025 12:41

Yes, everyone who has ASD will struggle to communicate.

So will children who have never been taught to communicate that don’t have ASD

So will children who are observed as having ‘speech delay’ in nursery when they talk their parents’ ears off at home - turns out they were just shy.

So will children whose first language isn’t English and are in an English speaking session

Show quote history

You don’t get an autism diagnosis for speech delay. Repetitive and restrictive behaviour and sensory difficulties are other criterias that need to be met with evidence. There are lots of things that form a holistic picture.

WhereIsMyJumper · 07/04/2025 12:47

P0ndl1f3 · 07/04/2025 12:44

You don’t get an autism diagnosis for speech delay. Repetitive and restrictive behaviour and sensory difficulties are other criterias that need to be met with evidence. There are lots of things that form a holistic picture.

Show quote history

I agree with you. I was quoting the poster that was saying there was one universal experience of all people with ASD by saying that can also be present in people without ASD.

Wildflowers99 · 07/04/2025 12:52

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Duckyfondant · 07/04/2025 12:57

P0ndl1f3 · 07/04/2025 12:40

No there isn’t overlap. ND is ND,NT is NT.

Health services have always targeted need,or not as the case maybe. You can’t get pip or an EHCP without proof of need hence the vast majority of ND kids and adults not having either.

Waiting until crisis hits is a really stupid way of handling things and why the system is overwhelmed now. I have no doubt if my dc had received the care they should have had before crisis hit they wouldn’t be as ill as they are and costing so much now. Several professionals agree with me too.

Show quote history

They haven't traditionally targeted need without diagnosis. Hence the massive queues for diagnosis. The ND/NT dichotomy causes many of the delays.

LegoTherapy · 07/04/2025 12:58

CautiousLurker01 · 07/04/2025 12:44

Sorry, I have to disagree because I know that’s not true. My DS and DD have no issues with communication, they both do however have issues with theory of mind (ie the ability to read motive and intention from the conduct of those around him or to read facial expression or accurately interpret tone of voice when dealing with strangers).

Communication issues are one of the diagnostic criteria that may support an ASD diagnosis, so yes many people with an ASD diagnosis may have communication issues because this is how their ASD operates.

Show quote history

But those ARE communication difficulties, just not verbal ones. Anybody observing my dc and I would not think we had communication difficulties because verbal communication is not affected. However we all really struggle with communication despite being very articulate and creative with language.

lifeturnsonadime · 07/04/2025 13:02

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 12:38

There is no diagnostic criteria for PDA.

Show quote history

I am referring to being assessed as having a PDA profile.

www.pdasociety.org.uk/i-am-a-parent-carer/resources/diagnosing-pda/

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 13:05

WhereIsMyJumper · 07/04/2025 12:41

Yes, everyone who has ASD will struggle to communicate.

So will children who have never been taught to communicate that don’t have ASD

So will children who are observed as having ‘speech delay’ in nursery when they talk their parents’ ears off at home - turns out they were just shy.

So will children whose first language isn’t English and are in an English speaking session

Show quote history

For all the rest it’s a might.

EilonwyWithRedGoldHair · 07/04/2025 13:05

HistoryisadiscardedVHS · 06/04/2025 22:21

@CautiousLurker01what I’m saying is that we are (all of us) complex mixtures of trauma, traits and different strategies for coping.
Too many people out there put too much hope into a diagnosis when we know that autistic people still self harm, autistic people still drop out of education or stop leaving the house altogether. In quite extreme situations, it feels that the diagnosis doesn’t actually help that person, it doesn’t mitigate all risks.
And you obviously know that, but I think many place so much on that diagnosis. It’s not the cure, and the person would arguably have to be in a place to be able to work on themselves in a neuroaffirmative way.
It’s too simplistic to say that diagnosis aren’t helpful, certainly they can help some, but for those in crisis, I don’t know how easy it is to see that your brain working differently is a good thing. It certainly doesn’t mean life is easy.
Children with EHCP’s still find they can’t face school. Parents still struggle to find schools that can meet need, or they love a school but their child is still unable to access. Part of me feels the emphasis is on the wrong thing. More mental health support, more downtime, less pressure, less curriculum, more flexibility. That would hugely help all children rather than a diagnosis led system which only helps the select few.

DS thought he was a bad person, that he was weird and just wrong in some way. A diagnosis has helped him understand himself better, that he's not wrong just different and that being different is ok.

The diagnosis also meant - and a lot of effort was put into getting him assessed sooner for this outcome - he was eligible for a place in a specialist unit, which thankfully he got. Without that place I think we'd have been back to EBSA after two years of hard work on our part to get him attending school even semi-regularly.

A diagnosis can't fix everything, but it can help hugely with some things.

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 13:08

CautiousLurker01 · 07/04/2025 12:44

Sorry, I have to disagree because I know that’s not true. My DS and DD have no issues with communication, they both do however have issues with theory of mind (ie the ability to read motive and intention from the conduct of those around him or to read facial expression or accurately interpret tone of voice when dealing with strangers).

Communication issues are one of the diagnostic criteria that may support an ASD diagnosis, so yes many people with an ASD diagnosis may have communication issues because this is how their ASD operates.

Show quote history

Then they aren’t autistic. It is literally, by definition, a social communication disorder. You might not think they do but if they’re diagnosed they have a barrier in communicating. You should note that difficulties with theory of mind will impact ability to communicate.

CautiousLurker01 · 07/04/2025 13:11

In the uk 1/4 people will experience anxiety and depression at some point; in the US it is 31/3%. It is thought that up to half of people with an ASC will experience it during their life times [emphasis: in their lifetimes/at some point for both ND and NT populations].

ie. Whilst prevalence for ‘mental health issues’ therefore may be higher in autistically diagnosed, the answer to the comments to above asking ‘when are they [MH issues] not’ comorbid with MH issues as stated above is in more than half of people on the spectrum. That 25-32% of NT people experience the same MH issues also demonstrates that they are not specifically ASC issues but have wider, more nuanced, societal aspects.

I would also posit that as diagnosed ASC/ASD patients are under the close care of clinicians and others, that there is a likelihood that their depression/anxiety is more readily diagnosed whereas many NTs do not approach their GPs and seek help (men specifically) - so the figure for NTs may actually be understated and the actual difference in incidence of MH issues between NT and ND populations may not, in fact, be quite as statistically significant as some people are asserting here.

But please continue with the ableism.