Page 10 | New view on mental health

Finallylostit · 2025-04-06T16:40:57+00:00

Read this today. This Doctor is refreshingly honest and a thought provoking perspective on the explosion in the mental health industry www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14576559/REAL-cause-explosion-autism-depression-psychiatrist-DR-ALISTAIR-SANTHOUSE.html

CautiousLurker01 · 07/04/2025 13:18

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 13:08

Then they aren’t autistic. It is literally, by definition, a social communication disorder. You might not think they do but if they’re diagnosed they have a barrier in communicating. You should note that difficulties with theory of mind will impact ability to communicate.

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FFS they are diagnosed by professionals actually trained in this. It is ONE factor that is considered, but I’ll be sure to contact the two separate clinics, and the psychologists and psychiatrists to tell them you know better.

Per the NAS website: bold print is my emphasis.

Social communication’ and ‘social interaction’ are often used interchangeably. This includes the use and understanding of spoken (verbal) and non-spoken (non-verbal) communication, such as conversation and body language. It also includes social ‘exchanges’, such as sharing and taking turns.
Social communication and interaction skills are used to start, build and maintain friendships and relationships with other people, including in your personal life, in education and at work.
Social communication and interaction differences are part of the criteria for an autism diagnosis, but these differences can vary widely between autistic people.

Language

Language is a system of sounds and symbols used in communication.
Although language differences are not part of the criteria for an autism diagnosis, language is a significant part of social communication and interaction, and research suggests that some autistic people may have differences in how they understand and/or use language. This can vary a lot between autistic people.

As I stated their verbal communication is fine, but their lack of a fully developed theory of mind means they struggle to interpret motive, mood, facial expressions and some behaviours of those around them. This can lead to mis-communication. They are absolutely autistic.

Criteria and tools used in an autism assessment

Information about the diagnostic criteria used for an autism diagnosis and the tools used by the specialist team carrying out the assessment.

https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/diagnosis/assessment-and-diagnosis/criteria-and-tools-used-in-an-autism-assessment

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 13:18

CautiousLurker01 · 07/04/2025 13:11

In the uk 1/4 people will experience anxiety and depression at some point; in the US it is 31/3%. It is thought that up to half of people with an ASC will experience it during their life times [emphasis: in their lifetimes/at some point for both ND and NT populations].

ie. Whilst prevalence for ‘mental health issues’ therefore may be higher in autistically diagnosed, the answer to the comments to above asking ‘when are they [MH issues] not’ comorbid with MH issues as stated above is in more than half of people on the spectrum. That 25-32% of NT people experience the same MH issues also demonstrates that they are not specifically ASC issues but have wider, more nuanced, societal aspects.

I would also posit that as diagnosed ASC/ASD patients are under the close care of clinicians and others, that there is a likelihood that their depression/anxiety is more readily diagnosed whereas many NTs do not approach their GPs and seek help (men specifically) - so the figure for NTs may actually be understated and the actual difference in incidence of MH issues between NT and ND populations may not, in fact, be quite as statistically significant as some people are asserting here.

But please continue with the ableism.

You also need to consider that our mental health system is not set up to support those with ASD.

CautiousLurker01 · 07/04/2025 13:19

I am done here and logging out.

EilonwyWithRedGoldHair · 07/04/2025 13:20

MuffinsOrCake · 07/04/2025 10:35

It has to exist because someone told me their child is partially autistic and somewhat dislexyc.

My child for example does not have diagnoses so in forums when I need infos I might say she is ND but in real life she is just NT with sensitivities.

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iirc, because this is going back 35 or so years, my sister was found to be borderline dyslexic and had extra reading support.

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 13:22

CautiousLurker01 · 07/04/2025 13:18

FFS they are diagnosed by professionals actually trained in this. It is ONE factor that is considered, but I’ll be sure to contact the two separate clinics, and the psychologists and psychiatrists to tell them you know better.

Per the NAS website: bold print is my emphasis.

Social communication’ and ‘social interaction’ are often used interchangeably. This includes the use and understanding of spoken (verbal) and non-spoken (non-verbal) communication, such as conversation and body language. It also includes social ‘exchanges’, such as sharing and taking turns.
Social communication and interaction skills are used to start, build and maintain friendships and relationships with other people, including in your personal life, in education and at work.
Social communication and interaction differences are part of the criteria for an autism diagnosis, but these differences can vary widely between autistic people.

Language

Language is a system of sounds and symbols used in communication.
Although language differences are not part of the criteria for an autism diagnosis, language is a significant part of social communication and interaction, and research suggests that some autistic people may have differences in how they understand and/or use language. This can vary a lot between autistic people.

As I stated their verbal communication is fine, but their lack of a fully developed theory of mind means they struggle to interpret motive, mood, facial expressions and some behaviours of those around them. This can lead to mis-communication. They are absolutely autistic.

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Did you read what you shared?

Social communication and interaction differences are part of the criteria for an autism diagnosis, but these differences can vary widely between autistic people.

it does not say that only some will have them.

Here’s the actual diagnostic criteria from NICE.

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/CG142/chapter/Recommendations#identification-and-assessment-2

Your description re theory of mind - not a must for diagnosis - would impact communication and social interaction. So despite maintaining that they don’t have difficulties you’ve described a difficulty that will impact so they should be diagnosed. Because they will struggle.

Criteria and tools used in an autism assessment

Information about the diagnostic criteria used for an autism diagnosis and the tools used by the specialist team carrying out the assessment.

https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/diagnosis/assessment-and-diagnosis/criteria-and-tools-used-in-an-autism-assessment

Sunnygreen · 07/04/2025 13:23

CautiousLurker01 · 07/04/2025 12:44

Sorry, I have to disagree because I know that’s not true. My DS and DD have no issues with communication, they both do however have issues with theory of mind (ie the ability to read motive and intention from the conduct of those around him or to read facial expression or accurately interpret tone of voice when dealing with strangers).

Communication issues are one of the diagnostic criteria that may support an ASD diagnosis, so yes many people with an ASD diagnosis may have communication issues because this is how their ASD operates.

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I agree with pp. You’ve just described communication difficulties.
It sounds like they don’t have problems with speech, but there’s more to communication than that.

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 13:26

CautiousLurker01 · 07/04/2025 13:18

FFS they are diagnosed by professionals actually trained in this. It is ONE factor that is considered, but I’ll be sure to contact the two separate clinics, and the psychologists and psychiatrists to tell them you know better.

Per the NAS website: bold print is my emphasis.

Social communication’ and ‘social interaction’ are often used interchangeably. This includes the use and understanding of spoken (verbal) and non-spoken (non-verbal) communication, such as conversation and body language. It also includes social ‘exchanges’, such as sharing and taking turns.
Social communication and interaction skills are used to start, build and maintain friendships and relationships with other people, including in your personal life, in education and at work.
Social communication and interaction differences are part of the criteria for an autism diagnosis, but these differences can vary widely between autistic people.

Language

Language is a system of sounds and symbols used in communication.
Although language differences are not part of the criteria for an autism diagnosis, language is a significant part of social communication and interaction, and research suggests that some autistic people may have differences in how they understand and/or use language. This can vary a lot between autistic people.

As I stated their verbal communication is fine, but their lack of a fully developed theory of mind means they struggle to interpret motive, mood, facial expressions and some behaviours of those around them. This can lead to mis-communication. They are absolutely autistic.

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You’ve also literally described significant difficulties with reading facial expressions etc. verbal communication is a tiny part of effective communication.

lifeturnsonadime · 07/04/2025 13:32

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 13:18

You also need to consider that our mental health system is not set up to support those with ASD.

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Edited , I misread your post.

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 13:33

lifeturnsonadime · 07/04/2025 13:32

Edited , I misread your post.

Edited

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ED teams are the worst.

Tinyrabbit · 07/04/2025 13:54

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 10:15

What caused the “severe brain damage”?

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Probably insufficient oxygen - they never really got to the bottom of it.

Riaanna · 07/04/2025 14:00

Tinyrabbit · 07/04/2025 13:54

Probably insufficient oxygen - they never really got to the bottom of it.

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I’m not sure why you think that appropriate diagnosis is not worth the bother just because someone has other things going on. That’s weird to me.

Locutus2000 · 07/04/2025 14:05

P0ndl1f3 · 07/04/2025 12:34

Everyone with ASC has to have specific traits that have significant impact on life. Did you not know this?

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Of course they do, but they get their kicks parroting the same old rubbish over and over to upset people.

AnnieMaud · 07/04/2025 14:12

Wildflowers99 · 07/04/2025 12:09

Down syndrome is black and white because you either have an extra copy of the chromosome, or you don’t. Which 1 factor determines whether a person is autistic or not?

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The diagnostic criteria is in the DSM-V 2013.

Mightymoog · 07/04/2025 14:58

AnnieMaud · 07/04/2025 14:12

The diagnostic criteria is in the DSM-V 2013.

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DSM-V 2013 isn't used in the UK.
But anyway, it uses a range of criteria for diagnosis, there is no black and white physiological marker such as a chromosomal abnormality such as for Downs syndrome

P0ndl1f3 · 07/04/2025 15:03

Mightymoog · 07/04/2025 14:58

DSM-V 2013 isn't used in the UK.
But anyway, it uses a range of criteria for diagnosis, there is no black and white physiological marker such as a chromosomal abnormality such as for Downs syndrome

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Despite the UK's primary use of ICD-10, the DSM-5 is recognized and its diagnostic criteria are sometimes referred to in clinical guidelines, especially due to its prominence in scientific literature.

Mightymoog · 07/04/2025 15:06

P0ndl1f3 · 07/04/2025 15:03

Despite the UK's primary use of ICD-10, the DSM-5 is recognized and its diagnostic criteria are sometimes referred to in clinical guidelines, especially due to its prominence in scientific literature.

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the question was about diagnosis and it's not used for diagnosis in the uk

Mightymoog · 07/04/2025 15:06

P0ndl1f3 · 07/04/2025 15:03

Despite the UK's primary use of ICD-10, the DSM-5 is recognized and its diagnostic criteria are sometimes referred to in clinical guidelines, especially due to its prominence in scientific literature.

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and again, it's not important.
The issue is the clear markers present for some conditions and the lack of them for others

PineappleChicken · 07/04/2025 15:16

Is it just autism diagnoses you have a problem with? Or do you also have a problem with fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome/ME, Lyme disease, IBS, depression, lupus, generalised anxiety disorder etc diagnoses?

P0ndl1f3 · 07/04/2025 15:17

Mightymoog · 07/04/2025 15:06

and again, it's not important.
The issue is the clear markers present for some conditions and the lack of them for others

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There are plenty of clear markers but I get you just want to argue against the autism diagnosis process ad nauseum.

Mightymoog · 07/04/2025 16:09

P0ndl1f3 · 07/04/2025 15:17

There are plenty of clear markers but I get you just want to argue against the autism diagnosis process ad nauseum.

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actually, I don't.
I'm just struggling to see why my point ( and others') is so hard to understand.
There is a clear physical marker for eg. downs syndrome.
There isn't for autism.
Does that mean I don't belive autism exists?
does that mean I don't trust the criteria used for autism diagnosis?
does that mean I think people are misdiagnosed with autism?
I'll help you out as it all seems a little complicated for you; the answer is no to all.
hth

P0ndl1f3 · 07/04/2025 16:11

Mightymoog · 07/04/2025 16:09

actually, I don't.
I'm just struggling to see why my point ( and others') is so hard to understand.
There is a clear physical marker for eg. downs syndrome.
There isn't for autism.
Does that mean I don't belive autism exists?
does that mean I don't trust the criteria used for autism diagnosis?
does that mean I think people are misdiagnosed with autism?
I'll help you out as it all seems a little complicated for you; the answer is no to all.
hth

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Oh bore off, you’re talking nonsense.

JLou08 · 07/04/2025 16:34

Wildflowers99 · 06/04/2025 20:30

Well I know several children who are completely non verbal and very disabled, and their sole diagnosis is ‘autism’. The same autism as apparently Bella Ramsey has. How are we so certain they have the same thing?

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Are you sure it is their sole diagnosis? I work with Autistic people and people with learning disabilities, 2 separate diagnosis. The severely disabled ones you describe sound like they have learning disability. Autism diagnostic criteria is social communication differences and repetitive behaviours. Someone can have a learning disability and autism if there is a larger gap in social communication development than there is in the other areas of development and they have repetitive behaviours.
Not everyone with autism has no other neurological or health condition. Some will have learning disability, some will not, some will have epilepsy, some will not, some will be dyslexic, some will not.

There is also a spectrum with the condition like there is with most conditions. I also work with people with cerebral palsy, some have no muscle tone at all and require support at all times and are wheelchair users, some are living very independently with just one limb effected. No one is questioning if those with less support needs have been wrongly diagnosed with cerebral palsy.

soupyspoon · 07/04/2025 17:22

CautiousLurker01 · 07/04/2025 09:04

They don’t have the same condition. They both have AN ‘autism spectrum condition’ - it’s a spectrum…

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Well with the removal of different category of severity, there now is just one condition. Thats what a lot of professionals, parents are saying is now unhelpful.

I have arthritis. The same condition as someone who is bedbound by it. Im not. So I have mild arthritis. Its completely reasonable to say the same about any condition, it has few or less significant impacts for person A than person B.

It shouldnt be controversial to say that

Sunnygreen · 07/04/2025 17:31

@soupyspoon
I think autism, or neurodivergence in general, can be part of someone’s identity. Arthritis is just seen as a medical condition, separate from a person if you will.

That’s the difference really. That’s why it’s seemingly ok to say someone has mild arthritis or mild asthma, but not to say someone has mild autism. Because it’s seen as an attack on identity and consequently as a lack of understanding.

Maybe?

soupyspoon · 07/04/2025 17:36

lifeturnsonadime · 07/04/2025 12:32

Barely anyone actually meets the criteria for the PDA diagnosis as the demand avoidance has to be pathological not anxiety driven. Many people on the autistic spectrum who struggle with demand depending on their anxiety level. They may look like they have PDA at points but they are 'just' autistic.

I really don't think you have a clue what you are talking about. No one is handing out either autism or PDA diagnosis to people who don't meet diagnostic criteria.

Whoever mentioned Tik tok might be confused there are numbers of people (predominantly younger people) who appear to identify as neurodiverse who have never been properly diagnosed. Those people are unlikely to qualify for PIP unless they can demonstrate need.

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Just on this PDA statement, I work with a lot of children who have a formal diagnosis of the PDA profile within ASD, so Im not sure its true to say that barely anyone meets the criteria.