Would you pay this school fine or risk it at court

[Coastingtohell25]

I know there is a lot of opinions on talking the kids out of school for holidays but I will not drip feed and I feel like I shouldn’t have to pay the fine.

We were informed that this year the school were not allowed to make allowances and everyone’s holiday request would be declined and it’s not their fault ( okay so I get this )

however the situation is as followed

DC class are away on residential mon -Friday to a sort of PGL like place. DC can’t attend for medical reasons and to be honest there was no real attempt to make it possible for them to attend.
parents were informed that if not attended they would be expected to be at school but DC is the only one not going. So we have booked a similar type holiday as a family at a well known family holiday park that dc enjoys which was very cheap due to not being in the holidays.

this will lead to a fine and I begrudge paying it to to be honest. Would I be unreasonable to stand my ground on this one ?

I don't think I'd let it get that far, phone the school and ask for a meeting (with someone from senior leadership plus whoever you spoke to that agreed to have the trip closer). Ask that due to the disability discrimination they authorise an absence to allow your child to be provided a similar experience. I doubt they'd say no, they'd rather free up the staff than have to think of something for your son to do for a full week when they can't teach the regular curriculum.

In your situation I'd get legal advice before not paying the fine, or alternatively just pay it and also raise a complaint about the trip. I think not paying it without proper legal advice is a big risk.

Sometimes we comply with rules we think are wrong, and that's ok. Paying means you can focus on other things, which benefits you and your son.

Ok - for the school to call you out if you rang in and said DC was ill that week and sadly would not be coming in for the lonesome school sessions would be so revoltingly heartless…

Mito. I mean…as if DC and you don’t have enough to be managing. Whether you take the school on about not providing a more inclusive environment and trip is a separate issue. But just play the game on reporting DC as sick in the interim. Perhaps it’s one of those things where they can’t give you the nod but are hoping you will.

if there is a ‘recovery’ halfway through the week you can email and say, ‘bit better now, going to take them away for a couple of days R&R but only going to miss four sessions so that’s fine. And just as well he’s ill as otherwise I was going to pursue a huge complaint about the school’s unacceptable trip selection! Byeee’

I think that really sucks and is not inclusive at all. To not allow a child to go due to medical needs and then force them into school as the only one not going is rubbish. I would also personally go away but would probably pay the fine

Can you not flex the trip so you don’t hit your counties trigger point - ours is 10 sessions, so school Monday morning and head off for your trip. I understand some counties have shorter trigger points for fines which is ridiculous as the new rule was meant to create a clear approach across all parts of the country

Good. I hope you also teach them not to needlessly exclude one child and give him a miserable week all alone for no reason.

This is insane to me.

‘If’ you have the mental energy then fight this forever. Use all the useful phrases above about alternative educational provision etc etc. Get lawyers and a go fund me and save the next parent from this nonsense.

But absolutely no judgement from me if that’s too much. You have a lot going on and this will be exhausting. Alternatively just do what you’re planning, see if there’s a fine and if it would be difficult to pay it, reach out to your community for support.

it’s a ridiculous situation they’ve put you in and it’s clear you’re the only person here with any sense. I hope you have a wonderful time.

I’d appeal it and let it go to court, I’d get the papers and local PM involved too. Bloody ridiculous and posters clearly can’t read your posts properly either.

I really feel for you OP. It does seem very unfair. Does the school have no leeway at all about authorising the absence? Given all the challenges your child(ren) face it seems incredibly petty if they can and won't. It sounds as though your DC would benefit far more from an activity holiday. Could you ask a medical professional to write a letter to school?

Not an expert in the legalities, but am absolutely Team OP here. How on earth can anyone think in these circumstances a fine should just be "sucked up"? Essentially it's a financial penalty for having a significant medical condition, and that is totally unfair in any circumstance.

I am disgusted at the lack of compassion and common sense from the school.

I have no legal knowledge what so ever but I can't get my head around the fact that the school are excluding a pupil from attending the residential (4 hours away from home, not putting any adjustments in place so that this child could attend...it should not be on the child's parent surely to come up with a solution that is either travel 8 hours a day or attend the trip when she has other responsibilities) and then the only other solution they can come up with for the time in school is sit with other year groups.

I'd argue on the fact that if school had come up with a reasonable plan, your child would have attended the trip.

And being singled out by having to sit with other year groups is going to negativity impact their mental health.

I'd be tempted to not send them in for a couple of days before and after the trip too...all their peers will be talking about going and then what happended when there and op's child will be excluded from that bonding too.

Take them away and have an amazing time op. Really hope you "win" this and don't have to pay the fine.

Hi I do have some knowledge in this area from several years ago.

have the school actually mentioned a fine? They may not record it in a way that triggers one.

there are only, if I recall correctly, a few statutory defences against an absence charge, if it goes to court. If you just don’t pay the LA then have the option of going to court. https://www.stockport.gov.uk/statutory-defences-for-parents-carers-of-non-attending-children (randomly taken from a council website).

in addition there is specific guidance on medical needs in school which I will find and check.

finally I don’t know why a pp needed the diagnosis to be able to advice, the Equality Act relies on impact and length not diagnosis

It's a hill I'd be prepared to die on, as another PP pointed out what have you got in writing about the discussion with the school to make it viable for your DC to go? Are they likely to stand up in court and say well we tried our best and it's their word against yours about what was actually offered and discussed?
Even though its obvious to the school that you will be on holiday for that week is it worth like a PP suggested saying he's sick for part of the week as surely the school will be glad for a workaround that means they don't have to issue a fine

This doesn’t help specifically but see the point re: school residential

https://childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/supporting-children-with-medical-needs-in-schools/#elementor-toc__heading-anchor-7

I'm generally anti termtime holidays, but in this instance totally with OP.

With regards to the CCG, they should be paying for a certain amount of overnight care on a routine basis. If you are up several times a night for cares, then a nighttime nurse should be funded at least 2-3 nights a week, so you get some decent rest. A family I work with, had a very similar situation, and they were allowed to put 2 weeks worth of nights together to enable their child to attend, and the following week they did all the nights themselves. It would probably take too long to arrange for this trip, but I would be asking for a review of his care package.

To avoid the fine, could he go into school one day,take him out about 1pm after afternoon registration, then only 4 days off?

I totally understand your point, but I wouldn't put yourself through the stress of court. Their hands are fairly tied and I don't think they would take everything into account. Fines are often for 5 days. Could you take him in for 30 mins on Monday morning to get a present mark and then go? You might not get a fine that way.

Have you actually even asked the school if they will authorise? They might surprise you. I would push them to consider an exceptional circumstance. If the won't then yes I would pay the fine as the cost of going to court is much higher.

This is the guidance that you need. It is clear re trying to allow children the same opportunities with regard to their medical condition however and the impact this has. Where you may fall down is the that a family holiday is different to a peer holiday although obviously close to what they are doing in other ways.

I would try to open the dialogue again with school. (It’s ICB not CCG now, surprised school are referring to CCG).

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/803956/supporting-pupils-at-school-with-medical-conditions.pdf

Have school said they will fine you??

none of the schools I’m involved w would - they have discretion not to. It’s appalling that they would consider this!

we have kids who need complex night cares that we HAVE taken (waking care, suctioning etc). It’s terrifyingly expensive but it’s their end of school residential and so important. We get a small grant and parents pay the standard charge.

it did cause some fallout and soul searching when one family in these circs changed their mind at the last minute when everything was paid, and the child didn’t go (wasn’t ill, parents just too worried). Understandable but painful all round…

I would have ChatGPT write me a letter for a formal counter complaint of discrimination and make it clear you will pursue this if they pursue you. They are being absolutely monstrous.

I would choose this hill to die on. Legally it's probably enforceable, but morally - absolutely no way.

Do you believe in your heart he could have attended the school trip with reasonable adjustments?

Did they know about the medical issue when they planned it?

if so they have put themselves in a very poor situation with regard to discrimination and I would pursue that.

However in terms of the fine, I dont know the case law on this but if they have in place an alternative suitable full time education for your child during that week, i think legally you could still be liable. As that is what you are missing. Even if morally they are wrong. But if that were the case I'd pursue the discrimination even harder.

I would also choose this hill, and would go to Court if necessary. What they’ve done is potentially discriminatory anyway - it might be worth calling the Civil Legal Advice. But if you understandably don’t have the energy to fight this you could ask them to authorise and if not, take him for morning registration on the Monday and then take him straight out. He will only miss 9 sessions then so will avoid the fine. They are absolutely heartless if they refuse to authorise.

Scotland does so many things better!

Our school gets told to return the day after vomiting now, never mind taking holidays 🤷🏼‍♀️

It's not the activities, it's the medical issues probably. I took a child with epilepsy on a European trip once but also took an epilepsy nurse. I can't remember the details now as years and years ago. Child required medical care beyond the capacity of a first aider.

There won't be a fine.
5 days of absence does not meet the threshold for a fine.

I was a teacher of this age group for 20 years. Taking 25 children, without serious health problems, away for a week is an absolutely enormous responsibility. Add into that a child who needs dialysis and night time venting on a trip that's 4 hours away from the only parent ( who has a job and other dependent children so can't just drop everything and meet us at a local hospital if there's a sudden crisis...and there will be a crisis, there always is) and I can absolutely see why the school have said they can't take this child. It is is shame that they aren't seeing you taking him to something far nicer as a positive for you and an enormous relief for them and the member of staff. If I was the Head I wouldn't be fining you.