Have we centred children too much?

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I have a friend- who has 2 sets of children- 20 years apart. 2 by her first marriage (now 30 and 28) and 2 by her second marriage (now 10 and 7)

I have been friends with her since her first child was 6 months old - and we had a really long talk last weekend as she feels totally wiped out. Some of it is age, but really interestingly, she believes she has made a rod for her own back and that parenting has changed so much. When her first two were younger, they were expected to do some colouring, join in if we were talking about child things but were not expected to interrupt her while she was talking. It was kind, caring , loving, they would be sitting on our laps etc but one of us might say " hang on a minute darling because mummy is talking, let us finish this and tell us in a minute" Then, we would finish , talk to them, them redirect them, and carry on chatting. When we were at her house, they were expected to play where we could see them, but not interrupt us. This was for a normal amount of time- say 45 mins - so not hours and hours.
Fast forward 20 years and her younger children need her CONSTANTLY. To the point where she is broken really. I took a takeaway over last Saturday and she ended up in tears, as despite prepping the kids, them having lots of toys/ things to do etc etc they would not stop coming into the room, interrupting her. One had a full tantrum because we wouldn't watch them playing a computer game. She feels she has brought it on herself as she allows them to interrupt, never redirects or makes them wait. She feels that the pressure to be more child centred has sort of seeped in, and she did it almost accidentally.
This is not a parent bashing or goady thread at all- it is intended for a genuine discussion

I think you’re right. We have, as is so often the case, over corrected - in this instance the benign neglect of the past. The pendulum has now swung too far the other way resulting in children who simply can’t cope in the outside world.

I also personally think there’s been a big rise in parental abdication, by which I mean parents dumping decisions on their children, difficult decisions that really should be the responsibility of a child.

We recently moved DD to a new school for year 10, and while we listened to her, we made it absolutely clear that ultimately this was our decision and our responsibility. Of course she wobbled when it came to it, and was worried that she’d made the wrong decision - but again, we made it clear that it hadn’t been her decision but ours. Our decision, our responsibility, our worry. Not hers.

Very interesting thread OP, it made me think. My DH’s youngest child has been brought up in what I would describe as helicopter parenting style and yes despite being a young teenager now she is still very needy. Despite being in secondary school she is only now slowly starting to spend time on her own and even that I’d say is mostly thanks to electronic devices. She requires attention at least every half an hour, wants adults to do things with her, go outside to play with her. At this age I basically ignored my mum and I’d be horrified at the idea of playing outside with my parents!
I also noticed our kids get offended when told to shush, while I wouldn’t even blink if my parents shushed me. It’s all about children’s feelings now. Hopefully when they all grow up they will be equally respectful of each other’s feelings having to work together and function in society where most would have been raised in this way.

No it doesn’t at all!

Gentle parenting wasn’t even a thing 30 years ago. And whilst people will say that children haven’t changed I disagree as children are the product of their environment and so if parenting has changed then so have children!

This seems very old to still be acting like this, I’d expect it more from 3-4 year olds. Are they SEN?

@Ohbellayoubigtwat

Yep. One time my son was being a twit about something and I'm paraphrasing but the gist was if I did this thing he wanted, then he'd behave. And I said abso-fucking-lutely not, I do not negotiate with terrorists!

Oh, I don’t know. My middle child is 11 and some of her friends have definitely acted like that over the last couple of years I’ve known them.

Diagnosing every child’s bad behavior as SEN also wasn’t a thing 30 years ago!

I wouldn't be surprised if my children hadn't known about adult TV. They went to bed at 7pm and we didn't watch TV in the daytime.

Yes.

boundaries, consequences and behavioural expectations are all considered extreme discipline.

no effort or expectation to maintain relationships with with friends or family as wider network and thus maintaining a village for yourself. acting as if it’s normal to never go anywhere without your children ever.

it creates an insane level of press to do and be everything for your child. It’s unsustainable. And frankly makes a lot of children really not nice to be around.

Well, more polite than going straight to ‘are they brats’. Because even modern 7-10 year olds shouldn’t be this clingy, it isn’t normal.

I think I know what you mean. The basics such as not interrupting (anyone, not just parents) I think are easy rules to implement but sometimes I do take a step back and realise our lives 100% revolve around the kids, without even intending to make it that way. When I was growing up weekends were spent doing a lot of essential 'boring stuff' (food shops, B&Q, etc.) as we only had one car which my dad took to work in the week and there was no such thing as deliveries so it had to be done at the weekend. Now the weekends are completely based on the kids' activities, taking them to parties, days out that they will all enjoy and won't moan about - there is no time for them to feel 'bored' or that they're having to do something for mum and dad.

Similarly there are kids TV channels available 24/7 nowadays and we let them put them on pretty much whenever they want - I wouldn't dream of sticking the boring old news on at 6pm as was the case when I was their age!

Easter holidays coming up and every single day will be based on things they want to do. I've made a point of getting all of the 'boring stuff' out of the way this week (needed to get a tyre changed, needed to return some items in town, etc.) so that they will have two weeks of non-stop entertainment, even if that's just my attention whenever they need it. I work full time but will go out of my way to fit that around their days and my husband's shifts to my own detriment.

The more I think about it, the more examples I can come up with!

I tend to agree, I can definitely see a difference between the way I /my husband was raised, and the messages I get from other parents around me (very "gentle parenting vibe").

And on Mumsnet too, there is weird messaging between "not letting your children take over", but yet constantly putting them first and compromising because "they're just children", and giving them what they want because "otherwise it's abusive and controlling".

I feel we put a lot of boundaries with our (very young) children already, maybe because we aren't very patient people in the first place!
Yet when we see my family in France, they tend to say that we are very focused on them and we should "let them be" more.

When in the UK, we're definitely more careful about what we say and do about parenting.

You are 100% right. I have an 8 year old but she understands when we are talking not to interrupt because we have told her. She is also great around adults and has been taken out to restaurants from around 3 with colouring for her to do but I’ll play noughts and crosses etc so will my friend I’m with so she’s not ignored but understands we need to talk to.

children that age should not be having tantrums because they want attention. Feel sorry for your friend.

As a mother and now a grandmother, I do agree in general that parenting styles have changed to become much more child centred in recent years. I certainly expected my children to play among themselves and with others while I talked to my friends.
I think it has possibly gone a bit too far the other way now, from what I see. However, for me, one major improvement is the way children are now encouraged to talk through their feelings a lot more ( or at least that’s my observation) I think that’s really positive.

I think parenting has changed on the whole (with exceptions of course). There are many reasons why IMO, the world is very much more instant for all of us (information instantly available on smart phones, fast food available via just eat / uber eats, online shopping here next day via prime etc). As a child we had tv for an hour a day after school, then the children’s shows ended, now it’s available 24/7 via children’s dedicated channels and tablets. Add to this what someone has already said about everyone being a winner at school and in sports etc you end up with children that want everything now and don’t understand that the world doesn’t revolve around purely them.

An example from my DD just a few minutes ago, she has just missed one bus, her response, I’m not waiting 10 mins for the next bus… well you will have to as there is no choice. Years gone by 10 mins between buses would have been considered regular.

No I don’t think it does at all.

I totally agree with the OP. Fewer and fewer children are told to wait when interrupting or when they need/want a grown up in my experience (mum of 12 years, teacher of more!). It’s just about training them from a young age, it’s hardly a problem to make them wait - they need to learn not to interrupt people, it’s good for them!

I agree with you @Yellowsunbeams . I was having work done on the house. One of the tradesmen told me he wasn’t getting much sleep. He and his wife were sleeping on a mattress on the floor in their child’s room while the child ‘got used to their own bed’ Then the poor buggers have to get up and go to work the following day. And don’t get me started on children stuck on the boob till they are three or older! It seems to be the norm on MN but I personally don’t think it does the mother or child any favours.

Agreed, with aging 20 years making it even harder.

I don’t necessarily think it’s a societal shift, I just think different kids are different. Also, with such a big age gap, she’s a different parent to the second two than she was with the first.

It sounds like your friend has made a rod for her own back. It's possible to parent with kindness but also teach respect for your time and space. It's also not all parents. Dd didn't carry on like that at 7 and if she did she'd be corrected. She's 13 now and I rarely have to remind her of boundaries because I've done it for years. It's not too late though but will definitely mean some tough conversations. I'd recommend doing it while things are calm and setting out the new rules and how reminders will work and consequences for breaking them. We never have consequences that last longer than before bedtime. Every day is a new page.

Yes we have made absolutely everything about kids. And we can all see how well that’s working 🙄

I’m with you there. My own mother told me I was too harsh with my daughter from day 1 but I was just setting boundaries to bring up a nice human being and not a brat. Honestly I’d be embarrassed if she behaved in the ways I see some out and about. Parents are the boss not the children and they need to know that.

now 9 years on my mum gushes over what a nice easy child she is and happily has her for sleepovers / lunches out with her friends. My friend ‘borrows’ her to visit her nan cause she’s a joy to be around.

rules work. Society has none now and that’s why it’s fucked

Perhaps lockdowns had an impact - those children had mum around without much distraction at what was an influential time in their lives.

Society is basically the same (in fact it’s measurably safer). Don’t catastrophise; you just got older.