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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Astounded that this is actually legal

199 replies

movingthemountains · 02/04/2025 14:23

A friend of mine has 4 children, 1 with her ex partner from years ago and 3 with her husband. They have been separated for a year and plan to divorce eventually. He moved out of their rental property and now lives with his mum. He doesn’t work, never has really, apart from the odd job here and then over the years but it’s never lasted. She works part time, 2 days a week. They share the kids 50/50 and it’s all amicable.

Due to the two child benefit cap, which applies since the youngest 2,were born after 2017, they are unable to claim for all 4 kids simultaneously. As a result, they each claim benefits for 2 kids instead.
He receives between £900-£1000, a substantial amount considering he has no rent or bills to cover. It’s wild that they can pull this off, but if they were living together, it wouldn’t be possible.

AIBU to feel shocked by this?

Additionally, before anyone suggests that this is just a bait (generally how these threads go), friends do talk, you know!

OP posts:
5128gap · 02/04/2025 19:49

Mrsttcno1 · 02/04/2025 19:32

So again, to be clear, you don’t care what standard of living a child has so long as their parent gets to exercise their “right” to have a child, yes?

Why are you making up silly things and attributing them to that poster? She has said nothing of the sort. If anyone is indicating they don't care if children are raised with a poor standard of living, it's the people braying for benefits to be cut. Making parents poorer makes children poorer and reduces their quality of life. It's not PP who is arguing for that.

Nextdoor55 · 02/04/2025 19:54

I think as long as they're managing to look after the children who cares? Not me, good luck to them is what I say

Mrsttcno1 · 02/04/2025 19:54

TheWonderhorse · 02/04/2025 19:42

I just literally listed two things to prevent children being born into poverty. So that's my alternative to your "ban the poor and the disabled from breeding" policy. Your idea is beyond hideous. Mine gives people the dignity and respect they deserve.

And who pays the bill for that support do you think? There isn’t a magic money tree, as you’ve just said there is already a wage issue and every penny you pay out in benefits has to be paid IN in taxes.

Again- it should be a straight forward thing to live within your means, and not being life into the world that you cannot afford to support.

Toastandbutterand · 02/04/2025 20:03

XenoBitch · 02/04/2025 18:50

He does not have a joint UC claim with his mother. To say he should is ridiculous.
The only people who have joint claims are couples in a relationship that are living together.

Hey, I was thinking about you the other day!

I only use Mumsnet on google so I can't pm you, but if you pm me I'm happy to give you any info that comes my way regarding pip changes.

We're being given advice on how to prepare clients for the change in evidence they'll have to provide.

Best wishes and sorry to hijack the thread! X

Toastandbutterand · 02/04/2025 20:06

Mrsttcno1 · 02/04/2025 19:54

And who pays the bill for that support do you think? There isn’t a magic money tree, as you’ve just said there is already a wage issue and every penny you pay out in benefits has to be paid IN in taxes.

Again- it should be a straight forward thing to live within your means, and not being life into the world that you cannot afford to support.

Edited

Then you pay more tax.

It should be simple to lose £70 a week seeing as you think other people can

Or do you not mean you?

RamblingEclectic · 02/04/2025 20:13

Eh, I'm not sure how it's astounding. They'd have been able to do so without the issues of being split before 2017.

Circumstances can change and that is a different situation entirely, but it should not be at all controversial to say that if you cannot afford to keep a roof over a child’s head, clothes on their back and food in their tummy then you should not be having that child.

There are many reasons it's controversial in the manner it's been put, including:

It's controversial because it can be read that you're telling the people born into that situation that they shouldn't exist - or potentially, that they should have been taken into foster care for their parents' fecklessness.

It's controversial because, as others have said, UC and the legacy benefits were largely created to be wage subsidies to enable businesses (including the government) to continue to pay low wages. Some of the most essential and difficult work in our society is at or barely above minimum wage. Society relying on people willing to work that labour and turning around saying you shouldn't have kids is controversial. No amount of hustle is going to make certain areas of work - many desperately needed and already understaffed - pay better. The market has failed there.

It's controversial because, regardless of the example given, the vast majority of families who end up with both parents out work end up resolving it.

It's controversial because it largely assumes that children have access to their parents income and associates parental care with that income. That's not inherently true.

So you think it’s totally okay for children to be starving, skipping meals, not having clean clothes to wear or shoes that fit, just so everybody and anybody can have as many children as they want? Fuck the life those kids have, that doesn’t matter to you, as long as their parent gets to have a child they can’t afford to bring up?.

I experienced all of those while having a father who made 6 figures back in the 80s and 90s. I literally got pulled into the school nurse repeatedly in high school and embarrassingly weighed because people thought I had an eating disorder, when really I just had limited access to food - he'd buy enough for maybe a week, and be gone for three. I was known to wait around for the end of lunch for people's leftovers, I was also regularly the dirty kid and experienced having the electric company come to shut off the electrics while home alone. Parents having money doesn't mean kids aren't skipping meals, starving, and far more.

I've long accepted I'm the type of parent many people hate - over twenty years ago, I was an immigrant teenage mum who had a child while we lived on my also teenage husband's student loan - that baby didn't experience any of that, and neither did any of our other kids who came after. As an immigrant, I wasn't eligible for benefits - not even child benefit - when my oldest was born so benefits weren't part of the consideration.

There are many of us who make choices many don't like where benefits don't factor and there are many kids who are badly neglected like I was who get ignored because the parents live in a naice postcode or have the right kind of job. Presuming low income means neglect and low standards is part of why parents like mine were get away with it.

I'd rather be the irresponsible parent I was than the kind my parents were.

There isn’t a magic money tree, as you’ve just said there is already a wage issue and every penny you pay out in benefits has to be paid IN in taxes

Not every penny - while currently the primary revenue stream, it is not the only one governments have.

Nextdoor55 · 02/04/2025 20:15

Mrsttcno1 · 02/04/2025 19:54

And who pays the bill for that support do you think? There isn’t a magic money tree, as you’ve just said there is already a wage issue and every penny you pay out in benefits has to be paid IN in taxes.

Again- it should be a straight forward thing to live within your means, and not being life into the world that you cannot afford to support.

Edited

I hope you never lose your job & need to claim benefits.
We all pay for it.

Mrsttcno1 · 02/04/2025 20:24

Toastandbutterand · 02/04/2025 20:06

Then you pay more tax.

It should be simple to lose £70 a week seeing as you think other people can

Or do you not mean you?

Do I think that people who go out and work hard for their wages- wages that others have already rightly said are not good enough- should be even worse off to fund other people’s choices? No, I don’t think that’s okay :)

MixedBananas · 02/04/2025 20:26

How does he get 900-1k a month?
I have 2 children and I only gets £146 a month. I dint work and stay full time at home.

Dweetfidilove · 02/04/2025 20:35

Canonlythinkofthisone · 02/04/2025 18:34

Common sense? We can't afford more than one. So we now use contraception....it's not rocket science. Maybe if there wasn't free money for having children, more so, MORE money from being from a separated home, people would need to be accountable for their OWN actions and decisions.
I have indeed gone long periods of time without new clothes, takeaways and hair salon trips, to ensure our DD is in clean clothes that fit and has food in her tummy. Perhaps the suggestion should be education and accountability?

The poor have been producing multiple children since the dawn of time. This is not a result of the benefit system. Common sense and history tells us this.

There also isn't more money for separated homes. If there was, so many children in poverty wouldn't be represented by single-parent households and there wouldn't be so many women trapped in shit relationships.

The poor are also not usually famous for their stellar financial acumen, because they are usually just trying to survive. FGS, we have high earners on MN who are one paycheck away from disaster, but noone expects them not to have children.

For most people, benefits are not enough for multiple takeaways, new clothes etc. They are facing similar struggles to ensure their children are clothed amd fed.

XenoBitch · 02/04/2025 20:37

MixedBananas · 02/04/2025 20:26

How does he get 900-1k a month?
I have 2 children and I only gets £146 a month. I dint work and stay full time at home.

That is what I am wondering too, so I had a look.
As a single man that is meant to be looking for work, and lives with his mum so no housing costs... he will get £395.45pm.
Is he claiming CB or the child element of UC? Both are very different amounts. UC child element is £287.92pm per kid. So that x2 plus his own basic allowance puts him at about £970pm. Nearly £600 of his benefits is actually for the kids, and the mum will be getting the same too.

Dweetfidilove · 02/04/2025 20:39

MixedBananas · 02/04/2025 20:26

How does he get 900-1k a month?
I have 2 children and I only gets £146 a month. I dint work and stay full time at home.

Adult personal allowance- £393.45
Child Allowance - £287.92 per child.

Unless you've left out some pertinent information, you really should check that Universal Credit award, as on its own, that's likely incorrect.

XenoBitch · 02/04/2025 20:41

Dweetfidilove · 02/04/2025 20:39

Adult personal allowance- £393.45
Child Allowance - £287.92 per child.

Unless you've left out some pertinent information, you really should check that Universal Credit award, as on its own, that's likely incorrect.

It seems child element of UC and child benefit are two separate things with very different amounts.

Dweetfidilove · 02/04/2025 20:47

XenoBitch · 02/04/2025 20:41

It seems child element of UC and child benefit are two separate things with very different amounts.

They are. Child benefit is for everyone earning under £60k I believe - £25.60 for the first child and £16.90 each for subsequent children. This is uncapped, so is paid for as many children as you have.

BoredZelda · 02/04/2025 20:52

Whyx · 02/04/2025 15:40

Disgusted by the outrage on here over a £1000 a month. Look at what Keir Starmer and his cabinet awarded themselves in pay rise last month*. I expect an MPs meal expenses bill equals this amount some months. Direct your fury elsewhere and actually do some good.

*and same would have happened if Tories still in

Politicians don’t award themselves pay rises.

XenoBitch · 02/04/2025 21:00

Dweetfidilove · 02/04/2025 20:47

They are. Child benefit is for everyone earning under £60k I believe - £25.60 for the first child and £16.90 each for subsequent children. This is uncapped, so is paid for as many children as you have.

I had no idea about this (I don't have kids). I remember being sent to the PO as a kid to get my mum's CB.
I assume then that the UC child element is means tested, so is something lower income/non-working people get?

TheWonderhorse · 02/04/2025 21:07

Mrsttcno1 · 02/04/2025 19:54

And who pays the bill for that support do you think? There isn’t a magic money tree, as you’ve just said there is already a wage issue and every penny you pay out in benefits has to be paid IN in taxes.

Again- it should be a straight forward thing to live within your means, and not being life into the world that you cannot afford to support.

Edited

Employers need to pay appropriate wages and then that means that hundreds of thousands of UC claimants all of a sudden don't need UC any more. Those that are left in need can then have a benefit system that allows them to have a fulfilling life because more people are paying tax and fewer people are taking from the pot.

TheHerboriste · 02/04/2025 21:10

TheWonderhorse · 02/04/2025 21:07

Employers need to pay appropriate wages and then that means that hundreds of thousands of UC claimants all of a sudden don't need UC any more. Those that are left in need can then have a benefit system that allows them to have a fulfilling life because more people are paying tax and fewer people are taking from the pot.

Humans have overbred themselves into commodity status. There is no impetus for employers to pay more because with eight billion+ people on the planet, a global economy and ever-dwindling natural resources, there is always someone who will do it cheaper.

People need to realize that thanks to humans' lack of restraint, things are not going to get better, they are going to devolve. With climate change, AI and other tech replacing the need for human beings, wars, dying insect population affecting food sources, etc etc., life is going to get more difficult, not less difficult. It's survival of the fittest. Adding to the problem with feckless reproduction is reprehensible.

Dweetfidilove · 02/04/2025 21:10

XenoBitch · 02/04/2025 21:00

I had no idea about this (I don't have kids). I remember being sent to the PO as a kid to get my mum's CB.
I assume then that the UC child element is means tested, so is something lower income/non-working people get?

That's right. UC is means tested. He gets this amount because he's not working.

If he starts working, he can earn up to £673 per month( as he has no rent costs) before deductions kick in. If he had housing costs his deductions would start after earnings of £404 per month.
The deduction is then 55p off every £1 you earn over those amounts.

Starfishfriend · 02/04/2025 21:19

movingthemountains · 02/04/2025 15:41

@Starfishfriend what if everyone thought like that though? Who would foot the bill then?

What if everyone thought that big corporations should pay tax? Maybe they would? If everyone refused to spend their entire lives working just to earn someone else money, perhaps some things would change. I don’t know, but being jealous of someone who is getting relatively very little because you’re jealous that you’re not getting it or that they might be ‘taking’ that small amount from you, rather than look at the people getting unthinkable benefits from tax loopholes, seems a little silly to me.

TheWonderhorse · 02/04/2025 21:27

TheHerboriste · 02/04/2025 21:10

Humans have overbred themselves into commodity status. There is no impetus for employers to pay more because with eight billion+ people on the planet, a global economy and ever-dwindling natural resources, there is always someone who will do it cheaper.

People need to realize that thanks to humans' lack of restraint, things are not going to get better, they are going to devolve. With climate change, AI and other tech replacing the need for human beings, wars, dying insect population affecting food sources, etc etc., life is going to get more difficult, not less difficult. It's survival of the fittest. Adding to the problem with feckless reproduction is reprehensible.

The birthrate in the UK is at its lowest ever.

Literally everything you've mentioned is fuck all to do with the people at the bottom of the pile. It's not the poor and disabled that are running the businesses hurrying to replace people with tech. It's not the poor buying a whole new wardrobe from across the world every season. They're getting their clothes in charity shops and their furniture off Facebook.

So basically you're saying the people who've been dealt the worst hand in life already have to give up their reproductive rights so that those at the top can squeeze a few more million out of their businesses. No.

Theunamedcat · 02/04/2025 21:58

Mrsttcno1 · 02/04/2025 18:44

Literally read the thread, absolutely nobody has said that. It’s been very clear that circumstances change and that is a totally different situation, so it doesn’t apply to you. It WOULD apply to you if you’d been made redundant and THEN thought “you know what, now is the perfect time to try for a baby”

Really? The constant waffle about contraception and basically keep your legs shut relying on nothing EVER changing before during and after children cost of living jobs relationships all change in an instant contraception isn't the answer to this issue it never has been

Toastandbutterand · 02/04/2025 22:03

Mrsttcno1 · 02/04/2025 20:24

Do I think that people who go out and work hard for their wages- wages that others have already rightly said are not good enough- should be even worse off to fund other people’s choices? No, I don’t think that’s okay :)

I am that person.

I am struggling.

I don't think our choice should be to starve people.

Dontlletmedownbruce · 02/04/2025 22:36

I don't live in UK so just had to Google the two child benefit cap. That's insane!! I'm much more surprised at this awful policy than the people working around it like OPs friend.

TheHerboriste · 03/04/2025 01:49

Dontlletmedownbruce · 02/04/2025 22:36

I don't live in UK so just had to Google the two child benefit cap. That's insane!! I'm much more surprised at this awful policy than the people working around it like OPs friend.

What’s awful about it? Why should shiftless, feckless, imprudent people be allowed to pump out multiple kids at taxpayer expense??

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