Astounded that this is actually legal

[movingthemountains]

A friend of mine has 4 children, 1 with her ex partner from years ago and 3 with her husband. They have been separated for a year and plan to divorce eventually. He moved out of their rental property and now lives with his mum. He doesn’t work, never has really, apart from the odd job here and then over the years but it’s never lasted. She works part time, 2 days a week. They share the kids 50/50 and it’s all amicable.

Due to the two child benefit cap, which applies since the youngest 2,were born after 2017, they are unable to claim for all 4 kids simultaneously. As a result, they each claim benefits for 2 kids instead.
He receives between £900-£1000, a substantial amount considering he has no rent or bills to cover. It’s wild that they can pull this off, but if they were living together, it wouldn’t be possible.

AIBU to feel shocked by this?

Additionally, before anyone suggests that this is just a bait (generally how these threads go), friends do talk, you know!

Benefits exist to help victims of involuntary misfortune, not to continually bail out the feckless, lazy, careless and thoughtless.

There's a massive difference between the expectation of working hard and educating oneself and establishing a career and financial stability and relationship stability BEFORE conceiving children, and being told one should never having children at all.

Individuals have from leaving school until at least their mid-30s to prepare aggressively for parenthood. (and spare me the claptrap from the assisted fertility industry; many many many people have no problem at all conceiving in their 30s and 40s). If they can't manage to establish themselves in 15 years, and to take care of their own needs, then no, maybe they are not good candidates for responsibile parenthood.

It is not unreasonable to expect that people strive, hustle, exercise self-discipline and delay gratification in order to achieve big goals, and becoming a parent is a big goal with huge and costly ramifications for one's fellow citizens. One that should not be undertaken carelessly, fecklessly, thoughtlessly, lightly or without solid plans in place.

That is a basic reasonable rock-bottom expectation. I and many others are tired of watching society be dragged down by people who spend more time picking out their next programme on Netflix than on pondering whether or not to produce that next offspring, and with whom.

Can’t blame people for using the system that’s there. We are many generations in to the benefits culture now and it definitely affects behaviour and choices.

My anger is that work doesn’t really pay. An average job pays just enough to survive plus a little extra on top so what’s the point when you could have a relaxing life by using the system instead? Wages need to rise way above benefit levels.

This can’t be right or have been happening for long. Universal credit are on people’s backs to work, and there’s a threshold of earnings to meet to be able to claim, which means over 25-30 hours at minimum wage. They ask to see jobs you’ve applied for (not just take your word for it), send you on courses in the meantime, help with your cv etc… they want to see you applying for all and any type of work as that is what is expected. If this went on long term there would be sanctions and benefits stopped. You can’t just simply apply for a couple of jobs a month, they ask for proof and that you are spending that amount of time a week (25-30 hours) looking and applying for work, doing everything you can and taking any work. You have a coach that is in touch all the time. This wouldn’t be able to carry on long term.

That's true, they do need to be fed. But the point then is, don't have kids you cant afford to support yourself, where you have to depend on the state to literally raise your kids. Most of us understand that concept - I dont understand why some don't....

Spending a few days on MN is a big eye-opener about the lives of many … as described above.

MN - mainly debates are VAT on school fees vs questions like this one.

Wages are way above benefit levels.

Over 4, nearly 5 times as much on minimum wage. It's only if you have kids or a disability you get a top up. But you get top ups if you're working too.

Work does pay.

Only if there’s one child - one parent can claim for the one child.

However with more than one, two parents can claim for at least one child each.

Say, for example, my ex and I have 3 children and 50/50 care. He claims child benefit for child one, I claim for child 2 and 3 (because I’m the lower earner and he’s nice!).

He can then claim the UC element for one child, if needed. I can claim the UC element for 2 children - so I get more UC.

Your post is offensive to decent poorer people who are responsible and secure and live within their means. We need all social classes procreating

The issue is the feckless irresponsible underclass who offer nothing to society and the cycle continues.

@Toastandbutterand well, the difference is I’ve actually earned the money through work and contributed to the system. He hasn’t.

But if there’s 2 households then that’s 2 rents or 2 mortgages which is significantly more expensive than if they were sharing those costs

i can see the logic of it.

@Jessy78 I’m not disagreeing with you. But he’s been doing this for over a year and not been sanctioned etc

I think that this is smart of them and I wish her and her family well.

You don't sound like a good friend.

There are far worse legal evils in this country:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/taiwo-owwatemi-labour-mp-expenses-pet-rent-b2724000.html

These kids will hopefully be paying your pension. Would you rather they grew up in poverty with all that entails?

Build a pyramid system, live in the pyramid system.

OP
What do you think about about blended families? If someone with 2 kids 100% of the time moves in with someone with another 2 kids 100% of the time, how much CB do you think they should get?

Do you object to split parents with 2 kids on a 50/50 basis claiming for one kid each?

In your friend’s case, do you think that the parents should be claiming for one child each ? How would each parent know that the other wasn’t claiming for a second child ? Under that scheme if one parent claimed for one child and the other claimed for two, then which parent is committing fraud?

Human beings do not have a RIGHT to have children, first of all.

Nobody should be having children they can’t afford- it’s as simple as that and that shouldn’t be controversial. Circumstances can change and that is a different situation entirely, but it should not be at all controversial to say that if you cannot afford to keep a roof over a child’s head, clothes on their back and food in their tummy then you should not be having that child.

Yes they do.

And even if you don't believe in that right, then who the hell do you think will pay your pension with their taxes? It's kids or immigrants. Unfortunately a lot of middle class high wage earners on Mumsnet seem to not understand they have to accept one or the other.

Correct.......child benefit is not capped at 2 children, but Universal Credit and Child Tax Credit is.

How so?

The children of life long benefit claimants tend not to be very high earners themselves.
If at all. Their contribution to everybody else’s pension will be minimal.

@ OP What does this amount of £1000 per month consist of? If he has no bills or rent to pay, I can only work out his benefit income to approx £563.65 per month including child benefit. How does it add up to £1000?

And why do think that might be?
How would be best to address that issue?

The next generation doesn't just pay your pension. Low earning adults work in the industries that feed you, keep places clean and hygienic, do manual jobs that older people can no longer manage and take you to the toilet if the day comes you can't manage by yourself.

I have no idea.

How would you address it, since you’re the one insisting people have a right to have children they can’t actually pay for themselves?

I would provide free access to education at all levels and extra support for the children need it.

I would fund this with a capital gains tax that was consistent with PAYE levels.

The wealthy game the system as much as they can, who can blame the lower orders for doing the same?!