Fed up of reading threads asking how they can get out of paying care home fees.

[Nextdoortomeis]

As per the title.
I'm sure lots of people would like the state to pay care home fees.
But we don't live in a fair world.
Both mum and mil paid nearly £70k in fees
yes I didn't want to pay but I also wanted them to get the best care in their later years.

I think part of the problem comes from several generations being under the impression that this is what they have paid their national insurance for. Indeed it was sold like that with Beveridge and Bevan’s ‘cradle to grave’. At the time, no one had any idea how this would look in the 2020s.

The writing has been on the wall for some time and all politicians are aware of it but too scared to address it. It’s cowardly, because a cross-party agreement would not lose any party any votes but would start coming up with a solution.

IMHO the only solution is either a significant raise in NI or a compulsory insurance scheme (a bit like car insurance) which could be means tested so that those on benefits or low incomes have their contribution paid for by the state.

I used to be of the view that all inherited wealth was bad, so home owners should accept they have to pay for care, as indeed I do as a home owner myself since my insurance idea isn’t a real option at this time. However, effectively this diverts wealth from those who have managed to make social mobility work for them back to the super rich. Over time we’d see inherited wealth concentrated in the hands of even fewer people than we do now.

I will end my own life rather than have the kids' inheritance go on care home fees. - you won't - you say that now, but when it comes to the crunch you won't. Infeed the likelihood is that you will not be capable of doing so. I have seen this scenario so many times.

Why can’t the family women care for their elderly relatives?

Fixed that for you.

I was lucky enough to benefit from grammar school and a full university grant, so I have “bettered myself” if you like. You’d think I’d have no problem with paying for care, right? Except I have a disabled child, and I’m terrified of what state-provided “care” will look like for him if we can’t pass on the assets we’ve been accumulating for his future. We could afford for one of us to retire now, but we can’t because the fear never leaves you. So we’re already planning everything possible to avoid paying IH tax/fees in future. Luckily my DH is not from the UK so we own property and have accounts in several countries, which helps. And yes, I’m happy to live in the care home that smells of cabbage and piss, as long as DS is okay.

A few years ago, the Tories chose to change the way councils are funded, and basically removed their central government funding. Apparently, they cynically calculated that local councillors would be blamed for the resulting chaos. Since then, care costs have risen enormously - a double whammy.

Our local council is insolvent and it’s long-term finances are unsustainable. It’s had government permission to increase council tax by 7.49%, but that will only reduce the budget shortfall by a small amount. The council is also selling off assets, which is just buying time. Many other local authorities around the country are in the same boat - they cannot provide their statutory services on the budget they have.

We need the government to come up with a sustainable solution for funding social care, which will inevitably involve central government funding. And hopefully, it will end some of the injustices in the current system, such as self-payers being charged extra in order to subsidise other residents.

Personally, I would also like to see some of our local care providers named and shamed in the media, especially the ones which hiked up their prices by 100% in a single year. They’ve got off scot-free.

TL:DR - the current model for funding social care is unsustainable and the government needs to change it ASAP.

Sure, but not everyone with cancer get CHC payments. It tends to be paid out right at the end when extra nursing care, possibly at home, is needed.

Yes, this is the unfairness at the heart of the problem, I agree.

I think another issue is people being kept at home to secure the inheritance. There's a lady I know, she has dementia. She lives with her disabled husband. She's been outside in her nightie, screaming her head off late at night. She's had falls and been taken to hospital. So sad to see. Her daughter lives nearby and does go and see them every day. But she really needs round the clock care. But the parents house is worth 1mill+ and I suspect that the family are trying to hang on to that. It worries me how far they'll let it go. I'm aware I don't have the full picture but that woman is suffering. I can see that.

My mum (in her 70's) realised that paying £50 for a personal trainer every week would probably save money in carers further down the line. She's always been fairly fit, although she's had a heart attack and minor cancer, but she's not giving up yet. Hyrox has been mentioned 😂.
I'm doing the same, keeping as fit and well as I can should save a few quid as I get older.

If someone requires round-the-clock care that's 168 hours a week. So, even single-handed you need probably 5 carers (and that doesn't allow much for time off, sickness etc). At the NMW rate it's over £100,000 a year.

They often won't let you die at home in your own waste if you have dementia. You'll be put in a care home and pumped full of antibiotics while you slowly turn into a vegetable at the cost of thousands of pounds a day.

I don't know what the society wide solution is, but I hope I'm able to throw myself off a cliff good and early, and if there's any inheritance to be had, DS can have it.

Well the only way you can do this is by dropping down dead and not needing it or getting your kids to care for you.

I don't agree. I think with housing costs the way they are, it's the only way many people will ever own a house.

You may think very differently if you knew you'd end up homeless if care fees had to be paid.

My friend said once she reached 80, she'd end her life to avoid fees/becoming 'old'.

She sold her house, spent loads on holidays, clothes, just living a great life! She's 79 now and freaking out because she doesn't feel remotely ready to finish her life yet.

Me too but I think if dementia strikes there is very little alternative.

So how do you envisage being looked after when the time comes?

You don't know me and yes I will. I have a thought through and realistic plan for this. I know it means I will have to end my life whilst still healthy enough to do this.

The only thing that could stop it if is I have a sudden catastrophic accident, but I'm looking into ways to get arrangements in place to have my views on DNR and refusing consent to medical care known.

To put 'insurance to avoid having to sell the family home and miss IHT' in perspective, the ballpark numbers I understand are c£50k pa fees and an average duration of stay is c20 months.

It's a different beast but the care fees 'cap' government discussed was £86k excluding accommodation/'hotel' costs.

My recollection was the proposed government report's insurance premium was sufficiently significant that government thought no one would be willing to pay it as the likelihood of needing a care home place is relatively small. In theory, a small percentage of incurring a large loss seems ideal for insurance but government thought the numbers didn't stack up and didn't want to alienate those older voters.

And, if people did pay then we'd expect people to go into care earlier for longer hence pressure the planning assumptions or face a 'DWP' PIP style eligibility fight before they could 'go in' for what they'd paid for, perhaps?

Because it's dangerous.

We would have had to move house, had it adapted - where would this money come from? With advanced dementia my mother shouts and screams through the night. She is doubly incontinent and in her confusion grabs her soiled pad, handles the faeces and gets covered in it every night. It takes two trained care workers to clean her and her soiled bed whilst she fights back.

How would I work? How could I leave the house even to do the school run? It would be a hideous and frightening environment to raise my family. It would be a sentence. Now the worst is shielded from me and my mums dignity kept, so when I visit we get quality time and she is safe with full nursing care 24/7.

Getting older is not a charmed existence for all. It's pretty grim for the majority. My father said before he died that my mother would ruin our lives if I undertook 24hr care. Going into care was her fear so it's been a hard journey for both of us. But I have to stress that there was no alternative. I hope this is a path you don't have to choose.

Yes its unfair when someone in the same home gets it for free. The ones that pay fund the ones that don't. £2k a week soon burns through someone's savings. However I know that they are getting the best care they can buy. But also this is no life to live and they extend that life for more money. Its so difficult in cases of dementia.

To keep people at home with complex needs just so that money is not spent cannot be in the person's best interest.

I don't know what the society wide solution is, but I hope I'm able to throw myself off a cliff good and early, and if there's any inheritance to be had, DS can have it.

Depressing topic, but 3 generations of DH’s family have died of non-malignant brain tumours that slowly caused blindness/loss of mobility and then death. DH arranged with his DNephew (both doctors) that they would each travel to Switzerland with the other if diagnosed to help with the formalities. Both have paid their dues to the necessary “dead club” as they call the clinic! V sensible imo.

There's nothing in your post to suggest being in a care home would reduce this individual's suffering. If she is confused and agitated, she will be confused and agitated in a care home, very possibly more so. If she is mobile and can fall, she is just as likely to fall in a care home. You might not see it, but she will still suffer.

Since mortgage interest tax relief was abolished there’s been a plethora of benefits aimed at families with children…this has subsidised families far more than homeowners were ever subsidised!

It was the same situation as my dad. I’m so sorry you have been through it too.

I don’t think the people who ask why they can’t be looked after by family have seen the devastation that dementia causes a person. You absolutely couldn’t keep someone safe, and the rest of your family safe, 24 hours a day

I can't tell you how sick I am reading complete rubbish like this. Have you got any idea what extreme old age, with severe dementia actually looks like?

Millennia! Don't make me laugh. People died in their 60s and 70s until recently, now they are living well into their 80s and 90s. At least three women in the care home my DM was in were over 100.

When mine and DH's parents were our age (mid 60s) all our grandparents had died. DHs father died in his mid 80s, having never really recovered. We looked after his mum for 10 years after his death. In the end her Alzheimer's got so bad she was calling the police because she thought we were hiding her potatoes. She died from heart problems because the operation she needed was delayed by Covid.

We looked after my mum at home for 8 years, until she had to go into a care home because she was doubly incontinent, had no mobility and had to be turned twice during the night. That level of care cannot be managed in a domestic situation.

So fuck off with your trite 'families should look after their old people' spiel until you have actually been through it and know how hard it is.