Do all primary schools have behaviour issues?

[Wildflowers99]

Looking for a new primary for (well behaved, fairly academic) DD and without exception every OFSTED mentions things like ‘a significant number of children who struggle with appropriate behaviour’, or similar phrases to this.

It’s really disheartening. DD’s current school has a lot of children who are behind or struggle with behaviour and I was hoping to move her to a classroom environment better suited to her. We live in a very average area, some more deprived areas, some very middle class, but this seems to be an issue wherever I look.

Do I just give up and accept basically all primaries are like this?

These threads always cause upset but it needs to be talked about. Most parents naturally focus just on their own child, whichever side of the fence they sit.
I can see it from all sides…

1. as a teacher myself who is finding that we are getting less and less work completed year on year due to my time imcreasingly being taken by disruptive behaviour. That is going to have repercussions when the academic kids who would have historically completed X by the end of school, now don’t.
2. with one dd2 who thrives in quiet orderly conditions
3. another dd1 with autism and ADHD who finds school too overwhelming at times and she (and her classmates) would really benefit from half school/half homeschool- which she has currently decided to do, by herself 16, and I’m now waiting for the call and hoping it won’t come.

I agree with this.

Unless there is a radical re-think of what mainstream schools look like (which might not be what the majority of families want), I cannot imagine my non-verbal, doubly incontinent child included successfully in the local village school but he has thrived in a specialist school.

Or schools who state low sen figures may be refusing to diagnose or acknowledge difficulties

in my DS’ class there are dome children whose behaviour needed working on, but nothing too worrying I’d say. And I never notice anything out of the ordinary at pick up/drop off. Certainly not a “significant” number.
In all fairness it’s a one form primary village school in a three tier system (affluent) area, so incredibly small.

There are different sorts of SEN kids. Those who are high achieving academically but socially awkward, need rules to be followed and get distressed by boisterous children do really well in mainstream private, whereas they are prone to simply refuse to attend mainstream as constant outbursts and upheaval they find really traumatic.

Private schools are much calmer, behaviour is better and the schools appreciate these SEN kids’ academic ability.

Yes. We’re a tiny rural village school with fewer than 50 children. We have at least 10 with actual diagnosable behavioural issues and more with terrible attitudes, entitlement and just rudeness. (We do have many many absolutely lovely children too though).

A selective private school would probably meet this criteria. Somewhere that poor behaviour isn't tolerated, and disruptive children are asked to leave.

Not all schools are like this.

My DD attends a small village school in the south west. It’s incredibly nurturing and all of the children seem to be well-mannered and polite. It’s wonderful how the older children look out for the younger ones. I count myself incredibly fortunate that we live here.

We will probably put her in for the 11+, but I’m worried another 4/5 years of chaotic classroom will harm her chances. I know the 11+ isn’t the same sort of subject matter as you learn in the classroom, but it can’t help. It’s hard as if you’re the parent of a child like DD there are no options unless you’re very wealthy - your only option is to allow them to be semi invisible at a state school.

Well, otoh, there are a lot of online tools now - bond is online for all the 11 plus stuff, it has never been easier to do extension stuff at home.

Whilst it's true that some content in the 11+ is stuff they should cover at school (regular maths and English) a lot of it is basically an IQ test and the ones that are going to pass will pass it. The best way to make sure she does well in the comprehension and vocabulary is for her to be reading as wide a range as possible.

@Wildflowers99 Your DD sounds similar to mine, although we are aiming for leafy high achieving girls’ comp rather than grammar (having grown up and taught in north London I’ve borne witness to lots of 11+ craziness and don’t want to put DD through it all).

Another reason that we’ve decided to move schools/location is that the Head of DD’s current primary is heavily into the equity agenda, and her interpretation of this (which she is quite open about) is that ‘narrowing the gap’ involves supporting low attaining pupils while not stretching higher attainers, because allowing the higher attainers to reach their full potential inevitably means that the attainment gap remains. This is mind boggling to me but apparently (according to her) current best practice so our only option is to vote with our feet.

I’m a teacher and now work in safeguarding. If mine were still primary age… I’d homeschool

Every child deserves the right learning environment, including those with SEN. Your child’s needs don’t outweigh the rights of other children to an education. If an ‘orderly classroom’ means excluding those who need support, maybe the issue isn’t the children—it’s your perspective.”

Sounds like you’re looking for a school where no child has additional needs. That’s not how the real world works.”

@Wildflowers99i would wholeheartedly recommend you go for the 11+ and grammar for your dd op, as long as she will pass with just a reasonable level of tutoring. (Those that had to cram and cram just struggle and that’s horrible for them). The classrooms are quiet, the kids all want to learn so it’s great for them. It is a shame this environment is not available for all dc, but if it’s within her grasp, do it.

Working in a SEN school, and as a governor and having children in a state primary - Inclusion definitely doesn't work for many children with SEN, mainstream cannot always meet their needs. And where is doesn't, both they and their classmates lose out.

And mainstream declining some children with SEN is absolutely nothing to do with SATS scores, or league tables. It's due to their ability to meet need - it's negligent to accept a child when unable to meet their needs, and can put both their education and that of their peers at risk. Both are equally important, the right to an appropriate education of a child with SEN doesn't trump that of child without SEN, or vice versa. Every parent quite rightly wants the best educational experience for their child.

My daughter is ND, she needs a quiet predictable classroom, she masks until it gets too much, which is usually when she gets home and she has a meltdown, but it has hapenned in school. Another child who is ND in her class has vocal outbursts, fidget, make noises they cannot control, touches her - she finds this hugely distressing. Whose needs are priority there? It's incredibly hard for teachers to balance need, it must be really stressful.

Yes, I absolutely agree its good to mix with a wide range of abilities. But if you had a colleague who kept poking you with their pencil, pulled your hair, tore up your work, scratched you daily and then your 'manager' tells you off for not doing your work quickly enough, I'm not sure you would be 'embracing real life', you would probably be speaking to HR. It's equally important to teach children that they do not have to accept being hurt on a daily basis, and when my daughter was told by her teacher to accept this as 'the other child couldn't help it', I was fuming.

I need to tweak my earlier assertion. When I said children with SEN can be weeded out of the private system, I was too glib. I meant children with possible SEN who may not be the high performing types. And I was too genetic in referring to private schools. Many small independents up and down the country offer a nurturing setting for children who may feel overwhelmed in the larger state schools. Those same schools are the ones most hurt by VAT with a number facing closures. It is the highly selective ones in London that will nurture specific SEN for high performers but will sadly weed out DC with learning difficulties and will certainly bar those who are disruptive.

My kids’ primary school was wonderful. Very small village school with mixed-year classes, in a relatively poor area in the midlands. There were a fairly high % of SEN kids (including one of mine), but they were treated as a part of the school family and the other kids seemed quite understanding of them. From a young age they understood the difference between bad behaviour and ‘difficulties’, for example. Behaviour expectations were clear and behaviour was generally very good.

Both my kids are now at the much bigger, high-achieving high school, both in top sets, and they’ve both been completely shocked by the terrible behaviour of the kids from other schools. They can’t understand how primary age kids at their school, even those with difficulties, could behave, yet year 7s etc in this school can’t. Behaviour that would have been unthinkable at primary seems rampant and unchallenged at secondary. I’m about to have DD’s Y7 parents evening and she’s begged me to bring this up 😬.
I’m guessing behaviour at those other primaries was likely not good (there’s kids from at least 10 different primary schools at the high school). Some of them are much bigger primary schools though, and almost all in more affluent areas.

We had to move to an expensive private school to find it. While I’m completely aware of our privilege, I’m really angry about the state of education and the impact on families without the means to make the same choice. One of our children was hurt badly by an older boy at his school, which prompted the move. However, our child also has ADHD and I am aware that he was often disruptive in the classroom. Even before the assault worried me greatly, both that the school were tolerating his behaviour, and the impact he was having on other students. As much as his behaviour was impacting others, I didn’t see his own pathway ending well if his poor behaviour was just tolerated because of ADHD. It might contribute to his behaviour but I firmly believe he needed to learn to control himself.

Moving him completely solved the issue. He still has ADHD and is unmediated (we haven’t found the right one yet) and he has not been disruptive since the second month at the new school. I’d say the reason is two-fold - the stricter environment and behavioural expectations create a much calmer classroom. That reduces the impact of his symptoms on his own functioning. Secondly, he knows it would not be tolerated and he would face consequences for his behaviour. It definitely motivates him to toe the line. I know some people would disagree with that approach because he does have SEN but nothing will convince me that giving him an essentially free pass to disrupt his own and others education is in anyone’s best interests.

Yes.

I visit a lot of schools in my job.

Big schools are better at dealing with behaviour as they tend to have dedicated staff who will collect disruptive children at the earliest stage and minimise the effects on others.

Absolutely agree. Part of schools role is to prepare children for adulthood, and part of this is learning to adapt our behaviour to be able to work better with others.
My ND daughter struggles with this as doesn't always interpret social cues accurately, but we have worked a lot around role play and this is getting much better. If she accidentally says something unkind as doesn't get why she shouldn't, we work through why she said it and why it might upset others. Me saying 'it's fine for her to upset others as she is ND' isn't helpful, she needs to learn to navigate friendships, yes it's harder for her, but not impossible

We pulled our son out of school and moved him to a small village school 5 miles away. The behaviour at the previous school was atrocious, they even had sexual assault issues. DS was completely over looked. The drive to the village school is a PITA, but worth every minute, it’s like night and day. What I love most about it is just how young the kids all are, no rushing to grow up, I’m not going to list the things I hear about in other schools that we don’t experience here so not to offend anyone and take the thread off track, but I just feel the kids are allowed to be their own age.

Yes another parent of ND dc who agrees with this, that tolerance can be too high and intermittently enforced standards create uncertainty.

As a teacher I couldn’t agree more, I really felt for the kind, well-behaved children who turned up every day ready to learn, who were constantly disrupted and frightened by the behaviour of the odd individual. I certainly would not allow my own children to stay in a classroom with some of behaviour I’ve experienced, and chose their school very carefully. I listen very carefully to what they say, and would very quickly speak up and complain if any child was very violent towards them, it is unacceptable. Depending on age, I’d also report it to the police.